[Matthew (MPJ/Admin)]

The Harrow Observer, Pinner Observer, etc, have started a "Save Our
Seats" campaign on their front pages regarding the planned S Stock
seating layout, which would be common to the whole sub-surface network
(rather then being different according to the needs of each line, as
at present).

They say that the design of the new stock has entered its first phase
of consultation, and that the reduction in seats on the Metropolitan
would amount to 30%.

(Unfortunately this is only in the paper editions - there doesn't seem
to be much information available about)

This post is on the Usenet news group uk.transport.london

You can read this at

http://groups.google...d0749fd4bdad7ae

Although the new trains will be faster, fewer seats will be a problem for the run out to Amersham / Chesham and surrounds, especially in the evenings on the way home.

Should we also start a campaign?

[Tallguy]

Yes Matthew, we should start a campaign. I have commented on this elsewhere on the forum previously. Coming out of London in the evenings I often have to stand to Preston Road, sometimes Harrow until I get a seat. With the new traimns having a 30% reduction in seats I will definately have to stand to Harrow, possibly Rayners Lane (I use the Uxbridge branch).

The current seating design isn't perfect but it is high capacity.

[KevinR]

Matthew I agree with you and Tallguy - we should start a campaign. The train requirements of long distance Amersham commuters (and other travellers) are different to the majority of other underground train users. Unless we speak up our 'minority' views will not be teken into account.

One issue with a campaign though is exactly what we are campaigning against! I followed the Google link you gave at the front of the post and the second reply confused things for me ...

"I believe Metronet are considering adding some extra seats to the 8-car (Met Main) formations now.
When all deliveries are complete and timetable improvements take place these might then be removed without reducing seats-per-hour from A Stock days. Well that's what the propoganda says"

We need a clear view on what Metronet are actually proposing in order to capaign effectively.

KevinR

[Matthew (MPJ/Admin)]

There are some suggested pictures of S Stock at

http://www.metronetr...D=1088068912937

Whatever is finally produced, if we make a noise now, hopefully we will be heard.

[ndg019]

Definitely

Am a Chesham resident and what with the proposed reduction in the Chesham service (currently shelved we think) and now the reduction in the Chiltern line, we are getting the raw end of the deal. Less seats will be a nightmare although I get on at Chesham and off at Aldgate so hopefully I can find a seat! As we are outside the TFL area, Ken thinks he can give us the rough edges.

The 17:30 fast Chesham is full and standing by Farringdon every night - when it runs

The 07:20 fast Aldgate is full and standing by Chorleywood most mornings.

On another note -

I was on a Met train the other day and there was two Metronet guys saying the Chesham branch was going to close for at least week shortly with a replacement bus as the track is in such bad repair and needs total replacement - there has been a 20mph speed restriction for most of the line for the last few weeks. Does anyone know anything of this??

N.

[Matthew (Admin/MPJ)]

I understand there are many places on the track which need attention, not just the Chesham branch.

I also heard (and there is another thread about this) that the new stock won't be suitable for the Chesham branch, too long.

With regards the shortage of seats, I have emailed TFL and wait for their reply

[ndg019]

The rumour at Metronet or so the same guys said is that the Chesham trains will run to Watford around the traingle so providing extra trains south to Ricky. All it means for Chesham is even worse timekeeping as far as Chesham is concerned but should give them "better flexibility". It will mean they need more stock and drivers and paths which seems plain daft!

[Weezer]

ndg019, on Jul 13 2006, 05:20 PM, said:

The rumour at Metronet or so the same guys said is that the Chesham trains will run to Watford around the traingle so providing extra trains south to Ricky. All it means for Chesham is even worse timekeeping as far as Chesham is concerned but should give them "better flexibility". It will mean they need more stock and drivers and paths which seems plain daft!

I'd take anything anyone at Metronet says with a pinch of salt. LUL are the people to ask regarding the train service provided, or any future service. Metronet purely maintain the infrastructure and stock and have no real say in what type of service pattern (or the frequency) LUL/TfL run given the limitations of the infrastructure.

Also, I can't see a Chesham to Watford service being operated as this would introduce the possibility of too many conflictions with Chiltern between Chalfont and Rickmansworth (plus Met Main services) and also the Local line Watford service. One of the reasons the through Chesham trains were being considered for removal in the first place was because of the extra conflictions at Chalfont with crossing moves taking place that happen now.

[Giles S]

I noticed two Lu Emergency / Repare lorries driving out of Chesham towards Amersham this morning (8.05am), not sure if passing through or viewing the Chesham Branch line.

[Matthew (MPJ/Admin)]

There was no Chesham service this morning owing to something on the line, don't know what it was though

[KevinR]

An announcement at Rickmansworth station said that there was a tree down on the Chesham line yesterday.

[Matthew (MPJ/Admin)]

The Victoria line is getting new trains in 2009 (there current trains were introduced in about 1967/69, the Met's 1960/62!) and a mock up is being placed outside Euston station for passengers to comment on.

It would be useful if they did the same for the new S Stock so we could have our say.

[alfa-man]

mpj, on Jul 16 2006, 12:17 PM, said:

The Victoria line is getting new trains in 2009 (there current trains were introduced in about 1967/69, the Met's 1960/62!) and a mock up is being placed outside Euston station for passengers to comment on.

It would be useful if they did the same for the new S Stock so we could have our say.

When LUL started to refurbish the District D stock a train was left in a bay road at either Richmond or Wimbledon for passenger comment.

AS for the seating arrangements I know that Tfl equate the running times between stations on the Met as similar to the east end of the District Line and therefore they dont peceive the need to retain the seating arrangements.

So if we want the seats to stay the same we need to stand up and be counted !!

[Rob75]

alfa-man, on Jul 17 2006, 08:46 AM, said:

So if we want the seats to stay the same we need to stand up and be counted !!

Was that pun intentional? If so, very good!

[KevinR]

Hi - I sent an email to Metronet Rail asking for more information on the seating capacity changes for Amersham arising from the new trains on the Met line and what the consultation process was. This was the reply I got from Kelly Evans (a Metronet Rail Customer Services Administrator):

Each train on the Metropolitan line has currently a nominal 448 seats. However many of these seats are bench seats that are designated as holding 3 people, but are not up to current standards as they are only 420mm wide per seat place. The new trains will have 307 individual seat places, each at a width of 495mm.

We are required by legislation to provide wheel chair spaces on new build trains which reduce the number of fixed seats available.

The total seating capacity of the line remains largely unchanged. For example on the Uxbridge branch there are currently 4700 seats per hour, and there will remain a similar number. The amount of standing space will increase by approx. 40%.

A customer testing exercise was undertaken in May and June of this year across the whole SSL network. Digital representations and artists impressions of the designs were used to gauge the customer’s likes and dislikes. About 90% thought the new design was good, which is an exceptional result and tribute to the design teams involved.

The next step is to carry out customer testing in the autumn of this year with an emphasis towards the Metropolitan line customer, using a virtual reality model of the train which will give us further feedback on items such as seats, grab poles and information displays. Next year we’ll build a mock-up of the train, similar to what has been done for the Victoria line new trains currently on show at Euston to complete the customer consultation process.

Train service frequency will be increased by approx. 50% on the service through Harrow. For example, Uxbridge trains will increase from 10 per hour to 15 per hour, and Chalfont services will increase from 5 per hour to 7.5 per hour.

Full marks to Metronet Rail for a prompt and informative reply (the larger seats will be welcome) though inevitably it does raise a few follow up questions including:

(1) The seats capacity per hour figures for Amersham rather than Uxbridge (and the times of day that these apply, particularly the morning and evening commuting peak periods).

(2) The implication is that the total seat capacity of the line "to remain largely unchanged" by increasing Chalfont services from 5 per hours to 7.5 per hour (there does need to be a 50% increase in services for the seat total to remain the same). How will this happen during peak periods? (given the current issues with train scheduling and signalling on the Amersham line this would seem to involve some big expensive changes in addition to the train stock changes such as signalling/line changes/LUL-Chiltern scheduling)

(3) How to get involved in the customer testing for the Met line

I'll report back with updates.

Kevin

[Matthew (Admin/MPJ)]

Good you got a reply, I did not get a reply when I contacted TFL on the issue.

The signalling is set to be upgraded / replaced, it is 46 years old in places!

Whether this all happens at the same time I don't know.

The Federation of Metropolitan Line Users' Committees perhaps should have some input. I was in touch with them several years ago and made a web page for them at

http://www.metroland...fmluc/index.htm

but I don't know how active they are

[Tallguy]

On the Uxbridge branch (which I use daily) it sounds like the new signalling will allow the running of more trains. Whilst each of those trains will have fewer seats, there will be more trains per hour to compensate for this.

Whether the signalling works or not remains to be seen.......

[Matthew (Admin/MPJ)]

I have now received a reply from TFL regarding the reduced number of seats
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

9 August 2006

Dear Mr Jones

Thanks for your recent feedback about the seating on the proposed S-stock trains.

I understand your concern and hope I can offer you some reassurance.

While it is true to say that the new trains will have fewer seats compared
to the present trains, Metropolitan line customers will benefit from a
faster, more frequent service, so the number of seats per hour will remain
broadly the same.

We are at present at the planning stage and the train design is in the early
stages of customer acceptance testing, which will conclude next year. A
full-size mock-up train will be built in due course. This will enable as
many people as possible to see the new design before production starts.

So far, the response to the design has been overwhelmingly positive.

I hope this is helpful.

Please contact us again if you need any future help on this or any other
issue concerning the Underground.

Yours sincerely

Customer Service Team Manager
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Will be good to see the mock up and have our say, but I do wounder who at present is seeing the designs.

[Tallguy]

Have you asked if you can see the designs or give input on them?

[Matthew (MPJ/Admin)]

Tallguy, on Aug 11 2006, 10:22 PM, said:

Have you asked if you can see the designs or give input on them?

I do know that Metronet will be wanting some formal feedback. It may be possible to get involved with this, more information if I find out more.

The following links -

http://img.photobuck...orman/plans.jpg

http://img.photobuck...rman/plans1.jpg

show designs. They have been provided on another forum, see

http://billz1064.pro...read=1127836738

The designs shown are old and it seems still being developed

There is also

http://www.metronetr...D=1088068912937