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Fewer Tube Trains From Amersham


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#1 tetley

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 01:59 PM

See attached link - which you may find of interest.




http://www.bucksfree...ersham_plan.php

Edited by Matthew (Admin/MPJ), 12 June 2008 - 02:18 PM.
Link corrected so can be clicked


#2 Matthew (Admin/MPJ)

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 02:20 PM

a 15 minute wait is not bad during the day. Hopefully there will be an even spread of trains over the hour.

If only they could prvide more serivces at the peak times.
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#3 Metman

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 05:44 PM

This idea came to light recently. The idea is the tfl don't want to spend money on lengthing the platform at Chalfont. The problem will be that Amersham will have a really uneven service. My idea would be to introduce 2 EXTRA trains leaving Baker Street a XX20 and XX50 and these would run to Chesham fast. AS long as there is room to fit round the Chiltern trains it should be a starter!

There are even the trains to actually run this service now!

Any thoughts?

#4 hyposmurf

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 07:15 PM

This put a massive smile on my face today, :) been long awaited that Chesham has a better service,its been diabolical for a long time.Waiting for the shuttle service in cold weather while you watch numerous Amersham trains pass,it kind of makes you feel like a second class traveller, even though you pay the same fare.Sorry if this upsets Amersham folk, but there will stil be a good service provided to Amersham,plus the added bonus that some of the strain maybe taken off Amersham station, due to Chesham residents not doing the Amersham run any more.Less passengers and traffic at the entrance.

#5 Weezer

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 10:04 PM

It shouldn't be forgotten that from 2001 up until about 2004 there was a 4tph service (2 Met, 2 Chiltern) service from Amersham anyway. While 2 trains will be removed from Amersham, the service from Chalfont and south thereof will still be as it is today and Chesham gains through trains to London into the bargain.

#6 Metman

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Posted 13 June 2008 - 06:52 PM

That's right, at the time it was mooted that 4tph was still available to Amersham (2 Met, 2 Chiltern) which replaced (2 Fast Met, 2 S/Fast Met and 2 Chiltern). I would like to see 6tph from Baker Street-Chalfont however!

#7 Weezer

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 01:41 PM

The official announcement on the consultation is available here:

http://www.tfl.gov.u...entre/8622.aspx

#8 Paul Capewell

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 02:22 PM

Thanks.

I like that they mention Tuesday 16 June and "Chiltern Trains" (whoever they are?!). But as said, it all sounds pretty good to me.

#9 147

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 02:45 PM

Whilst I wouldn't like to see the shuttle go,as it is a nice relaxing duty I can see TFL's logic.
It can be observed at Amersham off peak and at W/E that passengers already on the platform in time for the 16 & 46 minutes past the hour Met service don't board the Met trian but wait for the 26 & 56 Chiltern service which reaches Marylebone at the same time as the Baker St train.

#10 hyposmurf

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 07:24 PM

The official announcement on the consultation is available here:

http://www.tfl.gov.u...entre/8622.aspx


Carefull of the emails on that page there appear to be two different versions
chesham.consultation@tube.tfl.gov.uk
chesham.consultation@tube.tfl.gov.uk.

I guess the former is correct.

#11 Weezer

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 10:23 PM

Carefull of the emails on that page there appear to be two different versions
chesham.consultation@tube.tfl.gov.uk
chesham.consultation@tube.tfl.gov.uk.

I guess the former is correct.


They are, in fact, both correct but one basically has a full stop at the end (of the sentence). If you hover your mouse over the one with the full stop on the TfL page, the full stop doesn't get underlined with the rest of the address. The other is just sans full stop. This is further proved as in Internet Explorer, both email addresses are shown correctly in the status bar at the bottom.

#12 hyposmurf

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 12:02 PM

so that is just a full stop added after the email address.Not that clear at first glance. :)

#13 hyposmurf

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 12:13 PM

It can be observed at Amersham off peak and at W/E that passengers already on the platform in time for the 16 & 46 minutes past the hour Met service don't board the Met trian but wait for the 26 & 56 Chiltern service which reaches Marylebone at the same time as the Baker St train.


The chiltern line trains are just so much comfier, I'd do the same in that situation.

#14 Weezer

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 09:31 PM

The chiltern line trains are just so much comfier, I'd do the same in that situation.


It depends on the market I reckon. As both Met and Chiltern trains from Amersham terminate in a similar area of London (Baker Street and Marylebone), anyone in their right mind would take a Chiltern as it's faster (and more comfy as you say).

But I reckon that if the Met trains from Amersham went to Aldgate off peak, you'd see more people using the 16 and 46 departures as no change of train would be incurred for people wanting to gain stations Great Portland Street and south thereof. I bet there are a fair number of people who change off a Chiltern at Harrow for a train to Aldgate. Even if there aren't, at least it gives the Met from Amersham a valuable advantage for those people who want stations to Aldgate instead of using Chiltern who of course can't gain access to those City destinations.

#15 roob_the_doob

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 10:33 PM

It depends on the market I reckon. As both Met and Chiltern trains from Amersham terminate in a similar area of London (Baker Street and Marylebone), anyone in their right mind would take a Chiltern as it's faster (and more comfy as you say).

But I reckon that if the Met trains from Amersham went to Aldgate off peak, you'd see more people using the 16 and 46 departures as no change of train would be incurred for people wanting to gain stations Great Portland Street and south thereof. I bet there are a fair number of people who change off a Chiltern at Harrow for a train to Aldgate. Even if there aren't, at least it gives the Met from Amersham a valuable advantage for those people who want stations to Aldgate instead of using Chiltern who of course can't gain access to those City destinations.

There will also be a lot who get off a Met train at Finchley Rd to change onto the Jubilee.

#16 Matthew (Admin/MPJ)

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 08:51 AM

It depends on the market I reckon. As both Met and Chiltern trains from Amersham terminate in a similar area of London (Baker Street and Marylebone), anyone in their right mind would take a Chiltern as it's faster (and more comfy as you say).


Much of the time saved by going to Marylebone is lost by the long walk from platforms 5&6 there and then possibly a walk to Baker Street or using the Bakerloo. Met trains may arrive later, but the interchange and speed of exit at Finchley Road / Baker Street is much better than Marylebone
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#17 Weezer

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 11:17 AM

Much of the time saved by going to Marylebone is lost by the long walk from platforms 5&6 there and then possibly a walk to Baker Street or using the Bakerloo. Met trains may arrive later, but the interchange and speed of exit at Finchley Road / Baker Street is much better than Marylebone


Spot on! Shame a lot of people don't seem to realise that. Perhaps it's all a matter of perception...

#18 hyposmurf

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 12:12 PM

That would also depend on where youre going to.I could walk 1/2 of a mile to Marylebone, get on a Chiltern line train and still beat the cirrcle & Met amersham train back home.It was also less stressfull to walk and then get on a comfier Chiltern line train.(This was partly due to the timing of the trains and also the reduction of stops by the Chiltern line train).I'm sure if the met line trains were more comfy and reliable more passengers would use them and not just wait for the Chiltern line.

#19 a t o m i c

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 04:12 PM

Spot on! Shame a lot of people don't seem to realise that. Perhaps it's all a matter of perception...


Maybe it's a matter of COMFORT? I'd rather stand on a Chiltern train than sit on the Met.

#20 a t o m i c

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 04:23 PM

Much of the time saved by going to Marylebone is lost by the long walk from platforms 5&6 there and then possibly a walk to Baker Street or using the Bakerloo. Met trains may arrive later, but the interchange and speed of exit at Finchley Road / Baker Street is much better than Marylebone


Not all Chiltern services into Marylebone arrive at platforms 5+6, so that argument is not clear cut. Don't forget, too, that Chiltern also offer an Amersham fast service that goes Marylebone to Amersham direct, even faster than the already faster (than the Met Amersham Fast from BS) Chiltern service.

#21 Weezer

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 04:54 PM

Not all Chiltern services into Marylebone arrive at platforms 5+6, so that argument is not clear cut. Don't forget, too, that Chiltern also offer an Amersham fast service that goes Marylebone to Amersham direct, even faster than the already faster (than the Met Amersham Fast from BS) Chiltern service.


OK, so the current Met stock does suffer from 'comfortability' but I was overlooking that partcular downside of the Met and looking at it's postives and what it could offer the Amersham customer instead of a Chiltern. And for the record I would rather SIT on a Met train than stand on a Chiltern, like a lot of other people would. If you prefer to stand and get home a bit quicker on a Chiltern then that's a matter of personal preference - the alternative is always there.

And even if not all Chiltern services at Marylebone use platforms 5 or 6, there is still a walk down the platform, past the concourse and then down the road to Baker Street or down the escalators to the Bakerloo line platforms. There are times when you can beat a Met at Baker Street going this way but most of the time there can barely be anything in it.

#22 Metman

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 05:48 PM

Comfort? I'd rather travel on an A stock train than get packed into a rammed two car Chiltern train! The last time I was on a Chiltern train, it was bumping and rocking all over the place!

#23 astroturf

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 09:27 AM

There are now consultation leaflets at Amersham (and I suppose Chesham) station asking for views on this change.

As has been said before Ė it comes down to the timings of the 4tph. If there are large gaps that this would be an unacceptable degradation of service.

#24 Weezer

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 11:03 AM

There are now consultation leaflets at Amersham (and I suppose Chesham) station asking for views on this change.

As has been said before Ė it comes down to the timings of the 4tph. If there are large gaps that this would be an unacceptable degradation of service.


I think you'll have to realistically expect a 10/20 4tph split at Amersham, if only to maintain a regular 10 minute service south of Chalfont with 6tph from there.

#25 147

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 12:58 PM

There are now consultation leaflets at Amersham (and I suppose Chesham) station asking for views on this change.

As has been said before Ė it comes down to the timings of the 4tph. If there are large gaps that this would be an unacceptable degradation of service.



Chiltern 26 & 56 past the hour.

Met 06 & 36 past the hour.

With the two even numbered trains which previously ran from Amersham departing Chesham at 11 & 41 minutes past the hour.
This would leave the timetable the same south of Chalfont and arrival times in London would be unaffected as the Chilterns run faster from Moor Park.

#26 astroturf

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 01:57 PM

Actually that's not so bad - the 16 and 46 are scheduled (already mentioned I know) to arrive at the same time as the Chiltern into town.

The other thing that is on my mind is how reliable would be service be? I understand that you canít do a Chesham turn-around in under 20 minutes (c&l and back) so any excessive bunching could cause delays further back. Also northbound Chesham trains would have to cross the southbound Amersham line Ė how much is this likely to cause problems?

Iím not against this per se (and itís about high time that Chesham received a decent service) but I do feel that some questions need asking.

#27 147

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 02:13 PM

Actually that's not so bad - the 16 and 46 are scheduled (already mentioned I know) to arrive at the same time as the Chiltern into town.

The other thing that is on my mind is how reliable would be service be? I understand that you canít do a Chesham turn-around in under 20 minutes (c&l and back) so any excessive bunching could cause delays further back. Also northbound Chesham trains would have to cross the southbound Amersham line Ė how much is this likely to cause problems?

Iím not against this per se (and itís about high time that Chesham received a decent service) but I do feel that some questions need asking.



Prime example, yesterday morning the 07:19 was that late leaving Chesham the 07:53 ex Chesham had to be diverted to Amersham to prevent it blocking the northbound main (probably had a Chiltern behind it & you can't delay them), the shuttle then did an extra trip to compensate for the 8 car that went to Amersham.

#28 astroturf

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 02:35 PM

And at least that option is still open...

If the shuttle goes then is it possible that Chesham could actually get a worse service where there are delays? As you say sitting on the main northbound track is not an option so if the trains out out of synch with the schedule and there is already a train on the single track to chesham presumbly the train will have to get diverted to amersham. Which means that either Chesham users now have an hour gap between trains or a subsequent Amersham train gets diverted to Chesham.

#29 Weezer

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 10:07 PM

Prime example, yesterday morning the 07:19 was that late leaving Chesham the 07:53 ex Chesham had to be diverted to Amersham to prevent it blocking the northbound main (probably had a Chiltern behind it & you can't delay them), the shuttle then did an extra trip to compensate for the 8 car that went to Amersham.


Funnily enough the delays yesterday morning were caused by the failure of the signal which gives access to the Chesham branch, hence the extra shuttle trips and diversion of the through Cheshams to Amersham! Not a good advertisement for a through service, all day...and in that instance there would be the strong possibility of hourly gaps to Chesham or at least a ride to Amersham with an onward taxi...

Re 147s proposal for:

Chiltern 26 & 56 past the hour.
Met 06 & 36 past the hour.
11 and 41 ex Chesham.

I reckon that's fine southbound but northbound not so good. It would be better for it to be (departing Amersham at) 16m - 26c - 46m - 56c. Otherwise the trip northward to Amersham would involve passengers waiting longer for a connection with a Chitern going to Aylesbury. For example, the 46 Met departure arrives Amersham northbound at 25 past. The Chiltern goes through at 32 for Aylesbury meaning a 7 minute wait for a connection from the Met rather than a 17 minute one. That assumes of course that the Chilterns run in the same timings as now.

#30 147

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 10:16 AM

I reckon that's fine southbound but northbound not so good. It would be better for it to be (departing Amersham at) 16m - 26c - 46m - 56c. Otherwise the trip northward to Amersham would involve passengers waiting longer for a connection with a Chitern going to Aylesbury. For example, the 46 Met departure arrives Amersham northbound at 25 past. The Chiltern goes through at 32 for Aylesbury meaning a 7 minute wait for a connection from the Met rather than a 17 minute one. That assumes of course that the Chilterns run in the same timings as now.
[/quote]


Northbound passengers now have either a 5 or 15 minute wait depending on which Met they get off. Assuming the Chiltern stops at Chalfont they could change there and have the same wait.