28 replies to this topic

[David P]

. . . but I just noticed that this would be my 1000th post.
OK, I know the Fran, Mel, Paul et al are streets ahead but I'm a quiet little soul.

[Eaton]

. . . but I just noticed that this would be my 1000th post.

Congratulations, may your next 1000 posts be more verbose!

I'm a quiet little soul.

Really?

[Speedy]

I've been on this forum for many years, but my post count is still low, just don't have that much to say really.

[PaulEden]

. . . but I just noticed that this would be my 1000th post.
OK, I know the Fran, Mel, Paul et al are streets ahead but I'm a quiet little soul.

This might be a good time for a little nudge, David, if you fancy racking up another post or two. A while back you mentioned you were in Czechoslovakia in the mid '60s. I said that was an interesting and turbulent time for eastern Europe and wondered if you were at liberty to tell us any more about your time there?

Paul

[David P]

If I sometimes seem unsympathetic to those who moan about such things as the snow and the potholes, it may be as a result of my experience in Czechoslovakia. Winter there meant regular mornings at -20C, no gritting even of the main roads and weeks of sheet ice (and probably no potatoes in any of the shops). Potholes were not just a case of the top layer of tarmac coming off but were proper holes, maybe 8 or 9 inches deep and a foot or more across. If you hit one you really knew about it, though my trusty Hillman Minx seemed to survive pretty well.

We lived in Ostrava for about 18 months from early 68 to mid 69, though I had made several visits during 67. Ostrava was the Sheffield of Czechoslovakia, all steelworks and coal mines. The job was to install a computer system to control a whole steel rolling mill. Very ambitious considering that the computer in question, which filled a large room, had, iirc, a main memory of 96Kbytes, a cycle time of 6microsecs, and a drum (no discs in those days) of, I think, 768Kbytes. Unsurprisingly the project didn't completely come off but part of it did go into production and the system continued to control the reheating furnaces up to about 1990. I still regard that as a great achievement.

In 67 Andropov was in power and the Czech people were best described as despondent. All (or certainly most) had adequate flats, food and clothing. Public transport was good and there were reasonable theatres etc. But they never had any spark. One never talked politics unless you knew them very well and knew which side they were on. Some were staunch communists but others hated the system and would tell you so if they knew no-one else was in ear-shot. In 68 Dubcek came to power and then there signs of new hope and optimism. It didn't last, of course, and the Russians invaded on August 20th - but that's another story.

We still have friends out there and, indeed, went out to visit them last year. Things are a little different now.

[PaulEden]

You know, I hoped that would be a good story and you didn't let me down. Very interesting. Thank you

[Fran]

Very interesting. Have you ever considered writing a longer piece about your time there?

[KevinR]

Yes very interesting. Fascinating social commentary and a slice of computing history too (far more interesting in those days).

[David P]

Have you ever considered writing a longer piece about your time there?

No.

But I'll add the odd anecdote here from time to time if people are interested.

[hyposmurf]

Really interesting to read that, as my Girlfriend is from Czech and even though she wasnt around when you lived in Ostrava she can relate to alot of what you say.That mustve been one tough time, the language alone is a challenge.

Things are a little different now.

Certainly Czech is alot different.I cant vouch for Ostrava, as Ive only gone past it on the train a few times.Cant remember ever coming across a pothole whilst there on numerous ocassions.The roads are in good condition and cleared of snow regularly, roads adequately salted and potatoes you can get in most shops now. If anything I think the Czech's deal with the snow on roads alot better than over here, maybe due to them having more experience of heavy snow. and investment in that area.

[David P]

Really interesting to read that, as my Girlfriend is from Czech and even though she wasnt around when you lived in Ostrava she can relate to alot of what you say.That mustve been one tough time, the language alone is a challenge.

Certainly Czech is alot different.I cant vouch for Ostrava, as Ive only gone past it on the train a few times.Cant remember ever coming across a pothole whilst there on numerous ocassions.The roads are in good condition and cleared of snow regularly, roads adequately salted and potatoes you can get in most shops now. If anything I think the Czech's deal with the snow on roads alot better than over here, maybe due to them having more experience of heavy snow. and investment in that area.

We were young - it didn't seem particularly tough, more of an adventure. We were, of course, the lucky ones, as we could pop down to Vienna to stock up on goodies, something very few Czechs could do. We were also lazy and never learned Czech. We started to learn but our tutor became sick and we never bothered to find another. It bothers me now to think how arrogant and unforgivable that attitude was. We did, of course, learn enough to read a menu, order a beer and do a bit of shopping. Otherwise, pointing and miming got us by. There was an excellent record shop in Ostrava - my wife used to go in there and sing the piece that she wanted. It always brought a smile and we always got the right record. Our working language was English, so most of the Czechs that we knew well spoke English.

In those days there was almost always something that we couldn't get. Potatoes one week, apples the next, cheese another. We even got a crate of toilet rolls shipped out as 'computer spares', with a little note from my manager saying 'we didn't realise you were this far in it'.

I said we could always go down to Vienna and we did this about once a month for a weekend and came back with a boot full of groceries. But we also had the ability to shop in the foreign currency shop, again something the average Czech could not do unless he'd got relations abroad who sent him money. Even then we felt uneasy about it, why should we be so privileged, but we did it so that we could get Nescafe, whisky, decent chocolate and other goodies often cheaper than in Vienna.

When we came home we invited our friends to come and visit us. 17 years later they managed to get a visa. I remember the look on Anna's face when we took her to visit an English supermarket - she just couldn't believe the size and choice of goods there. She had just seen nothing like it before and was almost in tears. About 6 years ago we went back to Ostrava. Having found our way back 'home' along the new motorways, Anna took us to see their new Tesco. Then I saw the same look on my wife's face - it makes Amersham Tesco look like Londis.

[PaulEden]

This is so interesting, David. Thank you very much.

[Fran]

It bothers me now to think how arrogant and unforgivable that attitude was.

Arrogant, yes; unforgiveable, surely not. As you say, you were young, and it sounds as if you atoned by sharing some of your relative fortune with your Czech friends while you were there and since.

it makes Amersham Tesco look like Londis.

What an amazing image!

I realise that Britain has changed a lot in recent years, but because we’re here most of the time, we see increments, not major change. To see such enormous shifts for oneself, albeit in another country, is quite a sobering privilege.

Without wanting to steal your thunder, we had a similar experience at a more superficial level after travelling round China 17 years ago and again last year. It wasn’t just the big cities that were barely recognisable. In most respects those changes are good, but I think there is a danger of loosing something of their heritage in the race to emulate the west.

I went to Moscow and Leningrad (as it then was) about 25 years ago and, for similar reasons, would be interested to go back now. I also have more positive memories of their snow than of ours!

[David P]

there is a danger of loosing something

Gotcha.

[Fran]

Gotcha.

No excuse; that's an error I particularly dislike. (Mind you, they have loosed some things in China as well as losing others - but it's a fair cop.)

[David P]

CSA (Czech Airlines) in the 60's were served by a fleet of Russian built planes. The glass nose-cone would indicate that they were converted bombers. Since we were flying from Manchester we preferred to take BA to Frankfurt from where we could pick up an Air India flight to Prague.
But the real fun was on the internal flights. These were on ancient IL-3s, the Russian version of the Dakota with the tail wheel moved to the front (there were stories, probably apocryphal, of them tipping up if too many passengers rushed to the back).
I was perfectly capable of buying my own ticket from Ostrava to Prague but on one occasion a Czech friend insisted on 'helping' me. The tickets on internal flight were just a slip of paper, much like a bus ticket. A couple of days later, as my flight was called, I got out the ticket and realised that it had yesterday's date on it. What to do? Bluff it out. So I put my thumb over the date as I handed the ticket over to the stewardess and walked out to the plane, got on and found myself a seat. 10 minutes later one passenger still hadn't managed to find a seat. The stewardess was now getting a bit upset and started haranguing all the passengers. Of course, I'm English, didn't speak Czech so didn't understand a word of what she wass saying.
After 5 minutes she gave up, went to the back of the plane and unloaded a couple of crates of beer (they always had beer on those flights). Then she marched back across the tarmac to the departure lounge, grabbed an ordinary dining chair, parked it in the aisle of the plane and sat the extra passenger on it.

[hyposmurf]

Yes and CSA havent changed an awfull amount aince.We had a bumpy ride on our flight,flight took off late,we then circled London for a while so had extra time, but the flight staff still ran out of time and couldnt get to sell anything.The planes looked really dated,no one was asked to put their seats up or put belts on,the man next to us was trying to make calls on his phone the majority of the time in front of staff and just as we were landing a boy came out of the WC,staff looked totally unfazed by it and said nothing.We appreciate the service Easyjet now offer.Really glad to get home that day.

What to do? Bluff it out. So I put my thumb over the date as I handed the ticket over to the stewardess and walked out to the plane, got on and found myself a seat.

Cunning, still I guess those were desperate times, I'd have probably done the same.

[Eaton]

David for someone who started this post with the title 'Nothing to Say' you've got an awful lot of interesting stories that most people seem to enjoy reading!
.
I've done the 'look blank and pretend I don't know what's being said' in Spain many a time, if that fails and a second option is required I normally shout 'what, speak English I can't understand you'. It worked particularly well with the Police one day...

[Paul Capewell]

David for someone who started this post with the title 'Nothing to Say' you've got an awful lot of interesting stories that most people seem to enjoy reading!

Haha - I was just about to say the exact same thing. Fascinating snippets David - thanks a lot for sharing them.

[Fran]

CSA (Czech Airlines) in the 60's were served by a fleet of Russian built planes. The glass nose-cone would indicate that they were converted bombers.

When I flew Aeroflot in December 83/January 84 to Moscow, that plane was also a converted bomber, I was told. Subsequently people have been reluctant to believe me. I realise that was 15 or 20 years later than your Czech exploits, but it at least shows that some bombers were converted for commercial passengers in such countries.

As for the anecdote about using a dining chair, I can quite believe it. Even in 92 some of the internal Chinese airlines had just as cavalier an attitude to safety (absent safety belts; no doors on overhead lockers; extra seats bolted to the floor, blocking exits; dive-bombing the runway, rather than making a gentle descent etc). Funny with hindsight, but a little stressful at the time, though they had improved a great deal when we returned last year.

[Rayhoop]

love it love it love it!
I love factual stories and hearing about other peoples experiences!

[David P]

Crossing the Border.

Crossing into the Czech Republic these days is just like crossing any other European border (except, of course, into or out of the UK), you just drive across and notice that the road signs are a bit different. Back in the 60s it was rather different.

I've said that we made regular shopping expeditions to Vienna. There were no motorways in those days so it was a three hour drive but ittook at least four hours because of the border crossing.

First, there was always a queue of half a dozen cars in front of you, so the first half hour was spent waiting for them to be processed. Once you got to the front your passport was taken away and then nothing happened for ages. The passports sat on the corner of a desk while the staff smoked, chatted and drank coffee.

Eventually the customs officer would come and ask a string of questions, which rarely got very far because of the language barrier, though, with a bit of goodwill on both sides, it could be made to work in German. The car was always searched. On a good day this involved checking only that there were no hidden passengers in the back seat or the boot. More often they would simply make a nuisance of themselves by demanding that we take everything out of the boot, open the bonnet and glovebox and allow them to search my wife's handbag. They had a mirror on a long pole that allowed them to examine the underside of the car. If they were really bad tempered, we heard of cases where they had taken the door linings off and the carpets out.

I suppose I can understand their attitude when we, rich westerners, were coming in with a boot full of goodies that they could never hope to have. We didn't deliberately show flaunt these things but they couldn't help but see them and were, quite obviously, jealous.

One thing they were looking for was currency. There was a law which prohibited the import or export of Czech currency. The official rate was 15Kcs/£. We could probably get 60 on a street corner in Ostrava, though that was asking for trouble. We could, however, go into a bank in Vienna and get 40. They never searched my wife in the right places.

The law did have its advantages. Czech speed limits were low and from time to time the police would set up a trap – particularly, it seemed, in one small town near the border. I got caught two or three times and an on-the-spot fine was demanded. But since we were almost at the border and it was illegal to export Czech currency all we had was enough to buy a drink. They threatened to confiscate our passports but always let us off with a severe ticking off.

Several months after we returned home we had to go out again for a six-week trip (they couldn't do without me. ). This time we had a very small child with us and finally we discovered the secret of getting an easy time at customs. We opened the boot as usual and the officer wanted to know what was in the orange bucket, lifted the lid, rapidly put it back again and sent us on our way. It was full of dirty nappies!

[Fran]

Until now, I hadn't realised you had quite such a relaxed attitude to the law: black market currency exchange, smuggling and speeding. Is there anything else you want taken into consideration?

Seriously though, there is an interesting debate to be had about moral relativism and unjust laws in undemocratic states, though perhaps that's not for here. Certainly in my single short trip to Soviet Russia, I did similar things, though I would never dream of doing the equivalents over here (mind you, I was a student at the time), so I'm not actually pointing the finger of blame at you.

[David P]

Until now, I hadn't realised you had quite such a relaxed attitude to the law: black market currency exchange, smuggling and speeding. Is there anything else you want taken into consideration?

Seriously though, there is an interesting debate to be had about moral relativism and unjust laws in undemocratic states, though perhaps that's not for here. Certainly in my single short trip to Soviet Russia, I did similar things, though I would never dream of doing the equivalents over here (mind you, I was a student at the time), so I'm not actually pointing the finger of blame at you.

Czech currency is now fully convertible so the law has now changed in a way that would have made me innocent. As for speeding, I think that was more a case of 'let's catch a foreigner' rather than any safety considerations. It probably helped that we were British, rather than German, so were let off.

I may be wrong, but I seem to remember you've got a couple of points on your licence. In my long life in this country my only (detected) offences have been three parking tickets, two of which I got off and the third was grossly unfair (issued just two minutes before the restriction ended).

Goody, Goody Two Shoes.

[Fran]

I may be wrong, but I seem to remember you've got a couple of points on your licence.

Nope. I've never had any points on my licence.*

In my long life in this country my only (detected) offences have been three parking tickets, two of which I got off and the third was grossly unfair (issued just two minutes before the restriction ended).

I have never had one of those.

Goody, Goody Two Shoes.

Are you quoting Adam Ant intentionally?

*The only reason this is true is that I opted to do the speed awareness course instead of gaining points.

[David P]

One more story:
20 August 1968, 7 am.
We were hoping for a lie-in, having driven back from holiday in Yugoslavia just the day before, when someone started banging on the door of the flat. After several profanities I got up and found it was one of our colleagues wanting to listen to our radio (we had short wave that would pick up the BBC World Service). He said that we'd been invaded. Several more profanities followed as we weren't amused by practical jokes at that time in the morning but he persuaded us to open the curtains and look out. There was nothing unusual about a few military trucks being around, but these ones had Cyrillic number plates.

The World Service didn't tell us any more than we already knew so after a while we decided to drive into town to see what we could learn. There we saw tanks parked on all the major road intersections. The locals were all out rather sullenly watching what was going on. (Remember that these guys had been under Russian influence for 20 years but had just had 6 months of the Prague Spring, when the hard liners had been ousted and everything was starting to look rosy. Obviously that had just come to a very sharp end.) No-one seemed to have any more information so we had a bit of lunch in the hotel and then went back to the flat. The Embassy could give us much more advice than to listen to the World Service.

A bit later someone told us that he'd heard from some of the younger locals that there could well be trouble brewing later. We all got together and decided that perhaps the best thing, cowardly as it might seem, was to get out. We packed, left our keys with a trusted neighbour, and set off south for Vienna.

The first part of the journey was uneventful. The Russians had entered overnight from Poland in the north and were heading south to occupy the whole country and were way ahead of us. At Brno I always used a back-double along country lanes to avoid going through the middle of town. After just a couple of miles we saw just how much force they had brought in - a field with probably 100 or more military vehicles and tanks. Clearly they were settling down here to build a large military camp.

Not much further along the road we caught up with a convoy that formed the front of the invasion. The roads here were about 16' wide, my car was about 5' and a Russian tank about 12'. We weren't going to go anywhere very fast and spent, I suppose, about 45 minutes gradually working our way to the front. It was already getting dark and the Russians were travelling with just a single dim blue convoy light on the back of each vehicle, so seeing past, even when the road did widen a bit, was nigh impossible. Worst of all was the fact that tanks travel with their guns pointing backwards, right, it seemed to us, between the eyes of the following driver.

There was some light relief. In each of the villages that we passed through the locals were lining the streets watching, moer or less in silence it seemed. Then, in the middle of the convoy, they saw our little Hillman Minx, sporting the Union Jack and a Czech flag, and they all started waving and cheering.

Eventually we got past and down to the border, ahead of any Russian forces. That night the Czech border guards had absolutely no interest in holding us up and just waved us through. We were only held up briefly by the western press crowded around the Austrian border post.

We checked into a hotel in Vienna with very mixed feelings - relief that we were safe but great sorrow for all the friends we had left behind. My wife cried herself to sleep that night.

We stayed there for a few days until our company told us to come home. After six weeks everything seemed to have calmed down and we went back to finish the job. But nothing would be the same again for another 20 years.

[PaulEden]

When I get the email that you've posted in this thread David, I log in straight away. I knew there was going to be a David P vs T-62 post and here it is.

[Eaton]

David, please keep updating your Nothing to Say column, it's truly fascinating and like Paul I look forward to your snippets.

I've not had the excitement that you and your wife enjoyed but I was once part of an organised coach trip to Margate that had an armed Police escort out of town, once we'd picked up an 'offender' from the police station that is.....

[PaulEden]

A friend of mine is serving in Afghanistan and has been sending emails home. So, in a similar vein, I've posted the emails here.

http://www.amersham....?showtopic=3246