28 replies to this topic

[Matthew (Admin/MPJ)]

Bucks Examiner are reporting here that Dr Challoner's has been named England's best grammar school.

Well done to all concerned

[147]

Bucks Examiner are reporting here that Dr Challoner's has been named England's best grammar school.

Well done to all concerned

That maybe so but I'm sure there are plenty of products of DCGS (myself included) who will disagree.

[Eaton]

It's good news! Now if they could only teach the boys to look before crossing the road...

[PaulAmersham]

These things are cyclical. When I was a lad RGS was head and shoulders above Dr Challoners - both in academics (#1 for A Levels nationally) and sports. No doubt John Hampden will have its day at some point soon too.....

[HP6]

That maybe so but I'm sure there are plenty of products of DCGS (myself included) who will disagree.

Why? (The question is asked in a neutral tone).

[147]

Why? (The question is asked in a neutral tone).

You could probably Google it, but in the seventies and eighties, drug taking, bullying and Paeodophiles were rife in the school,

[Fran]

I don't think any school should be judged on what it was like 30 or 40 years ago, whether it was wonderful or awful at the time. What matters is what it is like now and what it is likely to be in the near future.

I have no experience and only sketchy knowledge of the past problems referred to, but as a parent of a boy who has been at the school for just over six years, I am very pleased with the school, not just in academic terms, but also in its attitude, policies and tactics regarding things such as drugs (legal and illegal) and bullying etc.

I think it very unfair on the current staff and pupils if every time the school is in the news for a good reason, someone tars it with the distant past, even though none of the same people are there.

[147]

I don't think any school should be judged on what it was like 30 or 40 years ago, whether it was wonderful or awful at the time. What matters is what it is like now and what it is likely to be in the near future.

I have no experience and only sketchy knowledge of the past problems referred to, but as a parent of a boy who has been at the school for just over six years, I am very pleased with the school, not just in academic terms, but also in its attitude, policies and tactics regarding things such as drugs (legal and illegal) and bullying etc.

Perhaps I should have said that applied to teachers and pupils alike.

I found back then that unless you were very bright pupils were left to their own devices and interest was only shown in Oxbridge quality pupils.

However if you look at the exam pass rates from then and now there isnt much to choose, untill you dig further and see how the subjects taken have changed.

[Fran]

I have no experience of the school in your day, and it sounds as if you have little direct experience of how it is now. Yes, it is an explicitly academic school, and I'm sure it's not perfect, but they do have a lot of support for boys (and parents) that need it. As for the exam results, that's rather a red herring: they couldn't improve them much without making all the boys take silly numbers of GCSEs and A levels (which some schools do, but they don't).

I am very sorry that you you, 147, and others had an unhappy time there, but I really don't think it's kind or fair on the current staff and boys to diminish their achievements because of the undoubted wrongs of their predecessors.

[PaulAmersham]

I have no experience of the school in your day, and it sounds as if you have little direct experience of how it is now. Yes, it is an explicitly academic school, and I'm sure it's not perfect, but they do have a lot of support for boys (and parents) that need it. As for the exam results, that's rather a red herring: they couldn't improve them much without making all the boys take silly numbers of GCSEs and A levels (which some schools do, but they don't).

I'm sorry that you you, 147, and others had an unhappy time there, but I don't think it's kind or fair on the current staff and boys to diminish their achievements because of the (undoubted) wrongs of their predecessors.

147 is quite within his rights to talk about his experiences as it is relevant. In fact there are teachers there still who taught in the 80s. No school is without its problems and I think the general point should be that ALL schools have their problems at some point or other. It would be pretty odd if they didn't....therefore these league tables should be viewed with a level of healthy scepticism....

[PaulEden]

No. The topic is Dr Challoners being named best grammar school. That's the topic we'll discuss in this thread.

Some 'topic drift' is inevitable and accepted, but we won't allow the thread to be taken off at a tangent so early.

We MIGHT accept discussion of what is a very emotive subject in another thread, but it's something that would need to be handled sensibly.

[Milton]

Strange that the Bucks Examiner story doesn't actually mention the measure by which Challoner's is the best grammar school in the country. It's actually on 'value added', or the improvement made by a cohort of students over the 5 years between beginning secondary school and taking their GCSE exams. There are, of course, many different ways of measuring a school's success at any given time and, as with all league tables (not just those in education), they make more sense if you understand the measures used.
When the school results tables are published each August each newspaper uses a different measure, so a given school can end up in completely different positions depending on your preferred read!

[HP6]

[HEAD TEACHER QUOTE]

"I'm just so happy for each and everyone of the boys….. [ENDS]

He’s right to be so. Hard work deserves recognition, as do the headteacher, teachers and the supportive families. Congratulations all round and keep up the good work!

[QUOTE] On the future of the school, Dr Fenton is embracing their 'academy' status, which came into force at the start of 2011: "We've had record results in GCSEs and A Levels and now we're the first school in Bucks to get this status. [Academy status] means we're more in charge of our own destiny as we're accountable directly to the Department of Education rather than Bucks County Council. It should enable us to work more efficiently and with all the council cuts taking place, there should be a lot of mileage in being independent." [ENDS]

It’s a pity the interviewer let that remark pass, as the logical extension of his argument is that DCGS should opt out of Bucks admissions and transport arrangements too. (And yes, I know they have no plans to do this at the present time).

Why have catchment areas (and distance) as admission criteria? Why not use the results of an independently-set aptitude test and rank the children fairly in order of score? It is a national school, after all.

(Mind you, at least estate agents would be horrified).

[Zoom]

Strange that the Bucks Examiner story doesn't actually mention the measure by which Challoner's is the best grammar school in the country

Exactly... for a grammar school with Dr Challoner's catchment to get the highest "value added" result of all the grammar schools in the country is a significant achievement. It shows that the school is not just living off its selective intake... it is taking those students and helping them to maximize their achievements MORE THAN ANY OTHER GRAMMAR SCHOOL DOES.

That is something the school can be very proud of.

I'm sorry about the experience some people had of the school 30-40 years ago but it is entirely irrelevant to now and the future... on a similar note the school I went to 30 years ago was a fantastically good school, the best in my area... but now it is, I think, the worst performing school in its area and is bordering on 'special measures'... a lot can change over such a long period.

Having recent experience of Dr Challoner's and having worked with educationalists who work in schools all over the country it is very clear that Dr Challoner's is doing a lot of things very very well.

Edited by PaulEden, 18 January 2011 - 06:24 PM.
duplicate post removed

[roob_the_doob]

it is taking those students and helping them to maximize their achievements MORE THAN ANY OTHER GRAMMAR SCHOOL DOES.

A small point, but it does this more than any other grammar school WITH A SIMILAR SOCIOECONOMIC INTAKE. We need to beware taking league tables at face value - the value added criteria aren't perfect, and do tend to reward the extremes of the distribution more than the middle.

Still a fine achievement though.

[Zoom]

Well we could get into a detailed discussion about what the CVA score actually measures and its limitations...

Basically the school has done better in developing its students than other schools with similar intakes...

Not only has it done better than every grammar school in the country relative to their intake but also better than every other (state) school in Bucks relative to their intakes.

[147]

Given the changing population of Amersham since I attended DCGS in the 70's, I wonder what percentage of students live in Amersham, Chesham Bois and Little Chalfont now compared the 15% back then.

[Fran]

For the main year 7 intake they sometimes can't accept all the boys who live in catchment. However, the catchment extends to Gerard's Cross, Denham and Great Missenden, I believe. You can view catchment maps on the Bucks CC website.

[KevinR]

Given the changing population of Amersham since I attended DCGS in the 70's, I wonder what percentage of students live in Amersham, Chesham Bois and Little Chalfont now compared the 15% back then.

I don't know the figures but suspect it's still quite a reasonable percentage. It's a popular school, and for the last few years has been over-subscribed, so that for main year 7 intake not everyone applying from the catchment area obtained a place. When over-subscribed, the distance from the school becomes the deciding factor, so that the areas close to the school will be better represented than areas at the outer edges of the catchment area.

For 2010 all qualifying boys up to a distance of 6.644 miles from the school got a place (plus all in catchment with siblings in years 7 to 10)
For 2009 all qualifying boys up to a distance of 6.014 miles from the school got a place (plus all in catchment with siblings in years 7 to 10)
For 2008 all qualifying boys up to a distance of 8.763 miles from the school got a place (plus all in catchment with siblings in years 7 to 10)

[Zoom]

I seem to recall the head saying that for year 7 intake that if you were outside the catchment area (which are set in conjunction with Bucks CC) that you were basically unlikely to get a place at all.

[PaulEden]

Just a quick aside for readers, The other Challoners thread has been closed. Discussion is not to migrate from there to here.

[147]

I don't know the figures but suspect it's still quite a reasonable percentage. It's a popular school, and for the last few years has been over-subscribed, so that for main year 7 intake not everyone applying from the catchment area obtained a place. When over-subscribed, the distance from the school becomes the deciding factor, so that the areas close to the school will be better represented than areas at the outer edges of the catchment area.

For 2010 all qualifying boys up to a distance of 6.644 miles from the school got a place (plus all in catchment with siblings in years 7 to 10)
For 2009 all qualifying boys up to a distance of 6.014 miles from the school got a place (plus all in catchment with siblings in years 7 to 10)
For 2008 all qualifying boys up to a distance of 8.763 miles from the school got a place (plus all in catchment with siblings in years 7 to 10)

My posting has probably been misinterpreted. I am assuming that there is now a higher percentage of pupils living within 2 miles of the school than there was 35 years ago because people are moving to the area for the school.

[PaulEden]

Given the way society has changed and we are all more mobile, do you think the opposite might be true? Pupils commute?

[Zoom]

My posting has probably been misinterpreted. I am assuming that there is now a higher percentage of pupils living within 2 miles of the school than there was 35 years ago because people are moving to the area for the school.

Well at one level it is self-fulfilling that the intake lives nearer to the school now that 35 years ago and that's because they changed the policy to give preference to those nearer the school, rather than highest score in the 11+ test. It is now several years since they made that change and now almost the entire school population was admitted under the new policy rather than the old. As there are 7 years at the school it will take 7 years from the change of policy for this to work its way through the entire school population.

Now... do more people move to an area for its school NOW than did 35 years ago (and conversely, move away from an area because of its schools) ? Well actually I think that they probably do.

The general awareness and impact of education league tables, the deterioration in the "bog standard comprehensive" and the obsessions during the 80s, 90s and noughties (by Conservative and Labour alike) with school perforamnce tables, curriculum, reforms, etc have made SOME people more aware of schools when they choose where to live. People are generally more aware of school performance, and there is a lot of evidence that it is the affluent middle-class that care more about it, have the willingness to do something about it and have the resources to do something about it.

But, is Amersham a more middle-class affluent place than it was 35 years ago ? If middle-class affluent people ARE moving to Amersham because of Dr Challoner's then that would show up in Amerhsam becoming more middle-class and affluent. Is that happening ? I couldn't say but I haven't heard any evidence of that.



The simple incontrovertable fact here is that Dr Challoner's is achieving excellent results, it is developing its students well both academically and as rounded boys ready for the world, and the figures bear that out, on all measures. In particular on the CVA score which shows that it is not just doing well because of its intake, it is even doing exceptionally well relative to its intake.

[PaulEden]

The simple incontrovertable fact here is that Dr Challoner's is achieving excellent results, it is developing its students well both academically and as rounded boys ready for the world, and the figures bear that out, on all measures. In particular on the CVA score which shows that it is not just doing well because of its intake, it is even doing exceptionally well relative to its intake.

Well said, M.

[HP6]

Dear me. Moderators, can you please create a "sticky" on how to become "middle class" in Amersham?

If anyone is interested, the DCGS admissions policy is at: http://www.buckscc.g...Policy_DCGS.pdf

The funny thing is that there are lots of references to Buckinghamshire County Council, which is odd given that there's a lot of mileage in being, er, an "independent" academy.

Sir, does "lot of mileage" = extra money from the Dept of Education?

[Zoom]

I don't think Dr Challoner's is an academy yet... I think right now it has Foundation status although it has applied to become an academy.

However none of that is relevant to the admission process... Academies are part of the state system and in Bucks that means that their admissions are managed through Bucks CC... being an academy allows the school more leeway, should it choose, in its admissions criteria... however those criteria would still be applied by Bucks CC through the Bucks CC school admissions process....

My understanding though is that Dr Challoner's has no intention of varying its admissions criteria from what they are today.

So what is the 'freedom' that comes with being an academy ? The difference (as I understand it) is that an academy owns and manages its own property and budget, the school is funded directly from whitehall rather than via Bucks CC, and it has more freedom to follow its own curriculum, administrative policies and practices, etc rather than being obliged to follow Bucks CC curriculum and administration.

It is still obliged to teach the national curriculum and is still inspected by Ofsted, etc.

As far as Dr Challoner's is concerned I wouldn't expect to see much difference as far as parents and students are concerned, but it will make a difference on how it manages its internal affairs.

[KevinR]

According to the headmaster's newsletter at http://www.challoner...er-20110107.pdf, Dr Challoners GS converted to Acadamy status on 1st January 2011.

The letter also says that being an Acadamy will allow the school to be selective in how it responds to the large amount of change arising from recent government policy changes, and in the short term converting to Acadamy status will have some short term financial benefits.

[Danny Boy]

Coming to this debate a bit late. I attended Challoner’s in the 80s. One of the few who travelled in from Denham. I readily admit it wasn’t easy at times. I think most of the kids who came from Denham struggled. We were generally from working-class backgrounds and had been the cleverest kids at one of the worst primary school in Bucks (now I think officially the worst). I went from top, and revered by the teachers, to near the bottom of class and ignored by the teachers. I remember going to my first French class and finding everyone else had been studying it for 1 or 2 years already. I was in tears as I couldn’t do my Maths homework and my parents who had left school at 15 and 12 could not help. However, my mother was immensely proud her son had made it to Grammar school, giving her greater social confidence in her new circle of friends. Looking back, its difficult to say if someone like me would have achieved more academically at a Secondary Modern or whether the difficulties I experienced in Sixth Form would have been replicated elsewhere. I know for sure, though, that life would have been a lot harder had my parents not decided to quit inner-city London for more gentile Bucks. The evidence is in the parallel lives of my older siblings.



I have to say that despite initially feeling a bit of an outsider, I never felt bullied. I recall the first day and the confident kids from one of the private schools were acting as doormen and not allowing some of us in to one of those portakabin classrooms, but I just launched into them and they backed off. Later I was involved in one of those fist fights where the whole playground crowds round for a view of the action. I went from being called the “cockney” to the “boxer”. I used to get called “cockney” at school and “posh” by my Dad’s mates; even now I readily switch emphasis depending on who I am talking to. There was very little physical bullying or intimidation at the school, whilst I attended. I do recall a few cases of severe psychological bullying and social isolation for a few boys. Some of the teachers were also targets for abuse. There were many clever, precocious pupils at the school and teachers that showed weakness suffered at their hands. However, the atmosphere was generally accepting. The very small number of non-white pupils were well integrated and popular, and did not suffer any hostility that I was aware of.



There was quite a lot of disruption at the school with strikes during my time. Even Challoner’s had its share of Marxist teachers. I do remember the 2 overtly homosexual teachers and the Bursar with his little group of ‘geek’ groupies. The one who was prosecuted was intimidating on a one to one basis, but he was regularly ridiculed by the older kids for being ‘queer’. I was surprised he abused a pupil, as his sexuality was seen as a bit of a joke at the time.



I remember the RE teacher telling the class he did not like kids from Denham, when we introduced ourselves. I realised why when I saw him pelted with eggs by the older boys on the Denham bus as he cycled to school. I know of several ex-Challoner’s Denham lads who felt bitter about their time at the school. I believe this is due to the lack of guidance and support they received from teachers and to some extent their parents, although, the latter was more a result of lower aspirations. I guess, this was a similar experience for a minority of pupils who came from other areas and explains some of the negativity expressed towards the school.



The vast majority of boys do well academically and professionally, so parents should not worry. My closest friends are all school mates from Challoner’s, which must say something. One of the most important aspects of schooling is the peer group, i.e. the crowd you hang around with. It serves as a basis for future aspirations. What I do believe is a travesty is the fact that children with a similar background to mine, now, have no chance of getting into a Grammar school. Social mobility is virtually dead and we are a much more fragmented society, socially, racially and culturally than the 70s and 80s, thanks to socialist policies of successive governments.



Also, I would treat the value added points with suspicion. It has a very subjective criteria, including ‘diversity’ performance.