110 replies to this topic

[LCM]

Though, of course, all these displaced children could still be in a position where they are applying for a place in Elangeni in Year 3 as they could have no school to go to then (ie IF St George;s takes some of them, they will be out of catchment for Woodside.


St George's is the linked school for Woodside, though, isn't it? Wouldn't that mean the children would have places there? Presumably that would suit people as they are both Amersham schools.

[cathindia]

Though, of course, all these displaced children could still be in a position where they are applying for a place in Elangeni in Year 3 as they could have no school to go to then (ie IF St George;s takes some of them, they will be out of catchment for Woodside.


St George's is the linked school for Woodside, though, isn't it? Wouldn't that mean the children would have places there? Presumably that would suit people as they are both Amersham schools.

Unfortunately not. If there are more children than places (which there will be in St Georges takes an extra 15 children) then catchment children will get priority over those attending a linked school. So all those who have been put into St George's who are in the Chestnut Lane catchment will not get a place - and will have to go through all this again. Only worse as they will have made friends at St Georges who will be going on to Woodside. It may be that Woodside or Elangeni will then have to put on an extra class for the children at that stage. Of course if the numbers drop for any reason (private schooling/moving out of area then this will not be a problem. But I suspect that the numbers are unlikely to drop enough for that given how many children are affected at the moment.

[Sunday Night]

I had a conversation with St George's yesterday - they called me - and it was confirmed that there will be an additional 15 places from September, raising the Reception intake for 2011 to 60.

The children are expected to be accommodated through the transition to the link-school Woodside (which historically does not reach capacity) and where, by law, in Year 3 additional numbers can be added.

At last it looks like there is a local solution for the children without Primary School places. Good on St George's.

[cathindia]

I had a conversation with St George's yesterday - they called me - and it was confirmed that there will be an additional 15 places from September, raising the Reception intake for 2011 to 60.

The children are expected to be accommodated through the transition to the link-school Woodside (which historically does not reach capacity) and where, by law, in Year 3 additional numbers can be added.

At last it looks like there is a local solution for the children without Primary School places. Good on St George's.

This offer by St George's will certainly help. Their offer is very much appreciated. But it will not cover all the affected children. Hopefully all the children who do get in will get a place at Woodside in year 3, but for the last 2 years Woodside has been full in Year 3. It currently only had an intake of 30 at Year 3 so it will not be a foregone conclusion that all the children will get admitted. (60 from St George'e to 30 places at Woodside?) Although classes can go up to 35 in Year 3, many junior schools do not have that level of intake (Elangeni only takes 30 in each of its year 3 classes as well). But even if Woodside puts up the class size to 35 that will still potentially leave 25 children without a place - and it will be the out-of-catchment children will be the ones who don't get in. Don't get be wrong I am delighted that St George's have made this offer and I will take it up for my son. But I it still leaves us worried about what will happen at the end of Infants with the potential that we will find ourselves in this situation all over again.

[Rob75]

This offer by St George's will certainly help. Their offer is very much appreciated. But it will not cover all the affected children. Hopefully all the children who do get in will get a place at Woodside in year 3, but for the last 2 years Woodside has been full in Year 3. It currently only had an intake of 30 at Year 3 so it will not be a foregone conclusion that all the children will get admitted. (60 from St George'e to 30 places at Woodside?) Although classes can go up to 35 in Year 3, many junior schools do not have that level of intake (Elangeni only takes 30 in each of its year 3 classes as well). But even if Woodside puts up the class size to 35 that will still potentially leave 25 children without a place - and it will be the out-of-catchment children will be the ones who don't get in. Don't get be wrong I am delighted that St George's have made this offer and I will take it up for my son. But I it still leaves us worried about what will happen at the end of Infants with the potential that we will find ourselves in this situation all over again.

As they were going to add 15 in every year for bell lane children, i would guess they'll ultimately do the same here. I would suspect this will become a permanent expansion for the two schools, with the st georges/chestnut lane catchment boundary shifted accordingly. So this will help the general shortage in the area.

[Bluegrass]

Of course in year 3 those children in Chestnut Lane catchment will possibly be applying to Elangeni. I wonder if there is a different measuring point for Elangeni and Chestnut Lane? If so this may make some of the current non placed closer and therefore they could get in to Elangeni over current Chestnut Lane children? Not sure how the linked school system works. Then the boot would be on the other foot for those sitting on CL places and arguing against the bulge class!

They could become the EAG which is another slang term somewhat related to CLAG.

[Bucksmum]

I have nothing but sympathy for the parents who are in this position, and I understand the problem better than most having been in the same situation last year. Last year there were 12 families in the same position - CL catchment, & not getting any of their 3 preference schools. Last year we were offered St Georges, and if what I have heard is correct, most of the families affected should be able to get a place at this school. Not all of the families have been offered Holmer Green, & I know some of the schools offered are good alternatives & much nearer than this school.

So this is not a new problem - the catchment for CL is always small, and if the children are offered a place at St Georges, this is no different to what some of them may have achieved in other years (& yes, I can quote the catchments sizes for Chesham Bois & all other local schools this and last year to the third decimal point)! I also went through the appeals process and know the regs inside out.

At the end of the day, this problem has been caused by poor planning by BCC, and the issues to be considered to resolve this saga will not be straight forward, but they will have to come from the council who will be making the decisions and funding them. Whatever solution is proposed will have to be an interim one for this group of children. An extra form entry at one of the local schools may be the answer, but this is not going to happen overnight.

I do believe that with full funding a bulge class could be created at Chestnut Lane, utilising the Rainbow nursery class. But, should a bulge class be created here, and a plan for all of these children made to complete their junior education, there is one issue that the group of affected parents are keeping rather quiet about. By creating a bulge class at CL, these parents are expecting siblings to attend the school, and in doing so, they are creating even greater problems for future years, when an even higher numbers of siblings will get priority places, and shrink catchments still further. In my view this is not the answer, and I cannot support the families campaign for this reason.

I wish all of the parents a speedy solution, and know from my own experience that this is a very stressful time for them all. Every parent would like a place for their child at their first preference school, but this is unrealistic, and large numbers of children will not get this locally or nationally. A school 7 miles away is obviously not a great option, but if they are offered a place at St Georges I suggest they take it. St Georges is a good school, and I hear Woodside is improving - they represent an education better than some will get in other parts of Bucks.

[zippys]

Of course in year 3 those children in Chestnut Lane catchment will possibly be applying to Elangeni. I wonder if there is a different measuring point for Elangeni and Chestnut Lane? If so this may make some of the current non placed closer and therefore they could get in to Elangeni over current Chestnut Lane children? Not sure how the linked school system works. Then the boot would be on the other foot for those sitting on CL places and arguing against the bulge class!

They could become the EAG which is another slang term somewhat related to CLAG.

CORRECT - some of the CL parents will find they are out of catchment for Elangeni. I suggest CL parents review Elangeni website, it states that catchment rules apply even though the schools are 'linked' and that attending CL isn't a pass to Elangeni.


Once the above rules have been applied, then any further places will be offered in distance order, using the distance between the family’s normal home address and the school’s nearest entrance gate, offering the closest first. We use the shortest appropriate route.

[Bucksmum]

The parents not allocated Chestnut Lane should probably count themselves lucky, St Georges looks like a much better option!

There are 62 children who have been allocated CL this year (Bucks CC error & special needs child), and the headmistress has decided to change the way the reception year is taught. They are now splitting the children into four groups, but as there are only 2 qualified teachers this year (as usual), two of the groups are being 'taught' by non qualified 'teachers'.

So children starting reception in September have no allocated teacher or classroom and will have a 'key worker' instead (ie operating in the same way as the local pre-schools). The school doesn't seem to have worked out how this is going to work in practice. Parents left todays introduction to the school session baffled, with no detail about who would be teaching their child, or where this teaching will take place.

The head chose not to tell parents about who would actually be teaching the children or how 2 teachers would teach 4 groups of children. She advised parents should ask their child which group they had been placed in and who their key worker was going to be. No lists were going to be provided detailing the other children in the various groups our children were allocated. Our child is still 3 years old and wasn't able to tell us anything, and didn't know who the assigned key worker was, or even what a key worker was. Our children had so been looking forward to finally knowing who their teacher would be, and which classroom they would be in, particularly those with siblings at the school, so there were plenty of tears in our house today - we know neither. Parents only found out the group allocated through the sticky label the school had stuck to our children's clothing with the name of their group written on it. Why couldn't we have had two classes with 31 children and an allocated teacher and classroom like everyone else?

There's no point in discussing with the headteacher, as she is likely to end the conversation with 'if you don't like the way the school is run take your child out and find another school'............. if only there were more school options locally .............

[Rob75]

There's no point in discussing with the headteacher...

You could try? Seems like you should - from what you say, it could well be that they didn't explain very well and you you might be misunderstanding some elements.

[Fran]

Bucksmum, what you were told sounds very odd, so I would echo Rob75's suggestion of asking for clarification. I'm sure it can't be the case that half the children will have a qualified teacher and half won't - for the whole year. Perhaps the teachers will each set work for two groups and alternate which class they actually take? (Far from ideal, but not as bad as described.)

Meanwhile, the mayor is lending her support: Examiner article. (I couldn't resist a chuckle at the statement that she is "a former parent of a child at the school".)

[PaulEden]

Bucksmum, that sounds dreadful. Given your lack of options, perhaps you should, like others have suggested, talk to the head. Your situation can only get better, surely?

[HP6]

The Mayor appears to be lamenting the situation without offering a solution.

[David P]

(I couldn't resist a chuckle at the statement that she is "a former parent of a child at the school".)

Maybe her kids have disowned her.

[Member11]

CORRECT - some of the CL parents will find they are out of catchment for Elangeni. I suggest CL parents review Elangeni website, it states that catchment rules apply even though the schools are 'linked' and that attending CL isn't a pass to Elangeni.


Once the above rules have been applied, then any further places will be offered in distance order, using the distance between the family's normal home address and the school's nearest entrance gate, offering the closest first. We use the shortest appropriate route.

I've looked into the admissions policy and if there are too many applications under rule 2 (children in catchment), the BCC will use rule 3-6 before the final rule is applied - further places will be offered in distance order, using the distance between the family's normal home address and the school's nearest entrance gate, offering the closest first. We use the shortest appropriate route.

Rules 3-6 include siblings of children in that school or a linked school and children belonging to a linked school to the one they are applying to.

Therefore those children who are in CL and are still in catchment will get priority into Elangeni over children in Elangani catchment but attending other infant / primary schools.

[Bluegrass]

The parents not allocated Chestnut Lane should probably count themselves lucky, St Georges looks like a much better option!


There's no point in discussing with the headteacher, as she is likely to end the conversation with 'if you don't like the way the school is run take your child out and find another school'............. if only there were more school options locally .............

Both possibly unfair and ill-informed opinions. If you do not understand how CL will be run how can you condemn it? If you have not spoken to the Head how can you presume to predict her response?

The answer is to go and talk in a calm and rational manner to the Head. If you are not satisfied with her response then take it to the school governers.

[Fran]

After a complaint, the mods have removed a couple of posts and discussed how to handle this topic.

This forum is a valid place to discuss local issues, including concerns about schools (and other local services and businesses).

However, reputation matters: it is important that comments are rooted in fact and that opinions are defensible.

Please consider your words carefully.

PMs have been sent to those whose posts were removed and they are welcome to repost, giving due consideration to the effect their words may have.

[Bluegrass]

So given the moderators rules, I would like to hear the 'rooted facts' proving that St Georges is a better option than CL and that the Head Teacher would say what she has been accused of possibly saying?

These are very strong statements of interest to the current parents of CL so substansiation should be provided.

[PaulEden]

Bluegrass, calm down. How can anyone possibly prove something that is so subjective?

We welcome open and free discussion, but we are all adults here and we should behave sensibly.

[Bucksmum]

Hope this will help to substantiate my comments Bluegrass




'The parents not allocated Chestnut Lane should probably count themselves lucky, St Georges looks like a much better option!'

1) Children starting at St Georges this year have an allocated classroom and qualified teachers. I personally believe this is a better option than 62 children split into 4 groups of children with 2 shared teachers. It is a fact that my child will not have a full time qualified teacher. This arrangement exceeds the legal limit of 30 children per class with a person legally able to teach them. The school have subsequently sent a letter to prospective reception children's parents stating that 3 rooms will be available for by use by the reception children (along with use of other parts of the school which are used by all CL children). At the start of the second term CL's nursery children arrive, and we were told on Tuesday they will reclaim one of the classes. (I am assuming here that all 62 children are in reception at this time).


In case you think this may be another one of my unsubstantiated comments you may well find the The Education (Infant Class Sizes) (England) Regulations 1998 of interest. It is to be read in conjunction with The 1998 Education act, and there is further information to be found in the 2002 Admissions appeals act.
http://www.legislati...3/contents/made

I have copied the appropriate section.

Limit on infant class sizes3.—(1) This regulation has effect for limiting class sizes for infant classes at schools in England for the purposes of section 1 of the 1998 Act.(2) No infant class at such a school shall contain more than 30 pupils while an ordinary teaching session is conducted by a single qualified teacher.(3) Where an ordinary teaching session in the case of any such class is conducted by more than one qualified teacher, paragraph (2) shall be taken to prohibit the class from containing more than 30 pupils for every one of those teachers.(4) Where an infant class at such a school contains any excepted pupil (as defined by regulation 4), paragraph (2) or (3) shall apply as if he were not included in the class.(5) Any limit imposed by this regulation shall apply in relation to the 2001–2002 school year and any subsequent year.(6) References in the 1998 Act to any limit imposed under section 1 of that Act shall, in relation to schools in England, be construed in accordance with this regulation.

I am not legally trained, and I do not know how CL plans to work within the law, but I am sure you understand why parents such as myself are concerned. The LEA have provided a trainee teacher (who is legally allowed to teach under supervision), but the letter sent by the school has not indicated how long this person will be post, or what her responsibilities will be.............. The letter sent by the school states that the two qualified teachers will be responsible for the children's education and that 'all children will be taught by' teachers X and Y . The main reason for my original post was the bewildering situation we were left with, with no information provided about how this group system will work, or who will actually teach our children and when this will happen. The subsequent letter sent by the school has made things a little clearer, but we were not given this until after I made my original post.



2) Children & parents joining St Georges have been give 3 introductory sessions to the school. This process has been well managed and the parents happy (yes, this bit is an opinion based upon the views of several parents I know with children starting at the school). CL reception parents & children have had one 45 minute visit to the school, and have left not knowing who or how their child will be taught. I have not even seen the key worker who will be responsible for my child. It is also the case that my small child was in tears with no idea who the key worker or teacher were, and no allocated classroom. (The subsequent letter received from the school has given a classroom, so maybe a change of heart here).



'There's no point in discussing with the headteacher, as she is likely to end the conversation with 'if you don't like the way the school is run take your child out and find another school'............. if only there were more school options locally .............'


I am at a loss as to what I can do to substantiate my opinion on this one to you without relaying various conversations I have personally had with the head. These conversations (along with those relayed by other parents) have resulted in my arrival at this sad view. As these conversations have never been tape recorded, whatever I say is going to be considered as opinion, and I really don't think it would be helpful.

I can assure you that I have always been calm when speaking to the head, but thanks for your suggestion that I should speak to the school governors - that would probably be a good idea.

[Bluegrass]

No unfortunately it does not.

Your response contains many inaccuracies. IMO you still do not show an understanding of how the school will run the reception. Now obviously I do not have children involved or in the school and am not as emotive on the issue but do not accept that any school will do as you suggest. Classes and year groups are commonly split between teachers and teaching assistants for most activities. This is all planned and performed under the guidance and supervision of the teacher/teachers. That school is not an academy and thus is subject to scrutiny by County who I am sure would not allow anything "illegal" or detrimental to educational standards occur in the school.

It looks likely that the communication from the school has been poor to say the least but that does not warrant a statement such as your opening one which cannot be substantiated.

Regarding the class sizes you prove the point against you in your own quotes. The extra child per class is obviously an 'excepted child' ( a SEN and a Bucks CC error) therefore the class size does not exceed the legal limit and you are wrong.

You say yourself regarding the statements about the head that you "are at a loss as to what I can do to substantiate my opinion". Well that's exactly my point! You cannot substantiate it and it could quite possibly be unfair and potentially harmful to the reputation of the person involved! Therefore you should not say such things about a person based on hear-say.

I feel for all parents who are going through a turbulent time on the admissions issues discussed on this forum. My first post was to question why everything is centred around CL and were they really that good. However I think it only correct that any statements/opinions made on these issue be fair and as the moderators said " rooted in fact" and "defensible". Especially when they are made about individuals.

I wish you the very best of luck with getting all of this sorted out to your satisfaction and hope that the school has learned a valuable lesson in the art and importance of communication. Would be great to hear from other parents to see if the experience described is common to many. I certainly hope that it is not the case.