28 replies to this topic

[Matthew (MPJ/Admin)]

KevinR has received some new pictures of the proposed S Stock to be used on the Metropolitan Line of London Underground

We have been asked to point out the following -

- The colours are not the final scheme, they are simply there as a place holder. The final
colour scheme is currently being worked out.

- The images without horizontal grab poles were used for the customer
acceptance testing - horizontal grab poles were not included in the
original design. Following feedback, they will now be included. These are shown in the
cutaway image but are to illustrate and are not the final design.

S Stock Exterior


S Stock Interior 1



S Stock Interior 2



S Stock Wheelchair



S Stock Corridor


S Stock Doors

[Matthew (MPJ/Admin)]

I have been looking at the pictures several times in order to not give a knee jerk reaction.

I think passengers at the northern end of the Met will fill up the forwards and backward seats first, leaving the side seats for say those people joining at Chorleywood and Rickmansworth. Bad luck those joining at Harrow!

To me, the trains look too open. I appreciate it is a compromise design to accommodate central London usage and outer London usage, but it looks too much like a bus in places and does not look comfortable. The low seats in particular do not look comfortable for a 45 minute plus journey.

The current A stock was developed to meet the needs of those passengers used to the previous compartment stock, hence the high seat backs and semi enclosed door vestibules. On the Chiltern trains, there is still a full height divide between the doors and seating areas. In cold weather, I feel the openness of the coaches could make for blasts of cold air at the stations, unless selective door opening is introduced again on LUL trains.

On return journeys, the improved standing area may be useful, I would still prefer a seat even though they say there will be more trains. I don't think I would want to stand in the connecting part of the coaches, no windows to look out of and moving floors. I think people like to stand by doors so as not to have to walk past lots of people when they want to get off, will people actually spread down the full length of the trains?

Perhaps a mock up of a coach will help undersatnd things better.

[Matthew (MPJ/Admin)]

I have been reading some other comments on the S Stock elsewhere on the Internet. Some of the comments raised which have not been raised here include

1) Although there is more standing room, unless the space is well designed, it will not be comfortable for people to stand in and thus you won't get as many people in the car as hoped for. In particular, people do not like having to stand very close to other people sitting, problems of leaning on them if there are no barriers and the fact that having some one's crotch close to your face will not be pleasant for anyone. Areas for standing should not have obstructions such as curved walls etc, although this is more of a problem on smaller tube stock. If people have to lean to stand, they spread their feet out, which takes up more room.

2) In order to use the same trains on Circle, District and Metropolitan services, the train can only be as wide as the narrowest line. The current A stock is the widest train in use in the UK. The new trains will be narrower as the District line has less clearance. By definition the new S Stock will not be as wide as the current A stock and there will be bigger gaps between the platform and train. Platforms cannot be moved much as then the Chiltern trains won't fit as they are also wide trains, built to take advantage of the wide loading gauge of the Metropolitan route.

[Tallguy]

This isn't looking good is it?

[Matthew (MPJ/Admin)]

This isn't looking good is it?

Do you get a seat in the mornings when you get on the service from Uxbridge?

[Tallguy]

I certainly do, I board at Hillingdon or Ickenham and the train is almost deserted at that point. Once we reach Rayners Lane it starts to get very busy and there are rarely seats south of Harrow on the slow trains. When a slow train reaches Wembley it may be completely full and leave people on the platform.

[Matthew (Admin/MPJ)]

I have been reading some articles which indicate some interesting points.

The current A stock (actually called A for Amersham) was designed taking into account the views of "Amersham Man" an "official" term. Prior to A Stock, services to Amersham and Watford were formed of normal coaches and T Stock. These were compartment type coaches and the A Stock was designed to meet the needs of the longer distance commuter, but still provide more standing space. As today, the number of actual seats was reduced, but made up for with more trains.

In particular, there was a big uproar over the fact that originally A Stock had no luggage racks or umbrella hooks. I note the pictures of S Stock do not have luggage racks. Thus, will this be another issue for long distance Met travelers, where to put all the bags?

It has been stated that the new trains will have less seats, but more trains will run to make up for this. However, this requires new signalling. The current A Stock will not be able to run with the new signals and unless the entire fleet of trains is changed over night (which I doubt will happen) there will be a period when S Stock and A Stock will run with the same level of service. Thus, there will be a fairly long period when there will be a reduction of seats owing to the use of mixed train stock. One hopes that A Stock will be kept for longer journeys to keep the number of seats as high as possible.

There is no easy answer to this!

[KevinR]

Well spotted Matthew.

I'd not noticed that there was no luggage racks on the new trains. This sounds like a real disadvantage over the current service for long distance commuters from Amersham into the City. Currently the luggage racks for both Amersham Chitern and Underground trains are usually very well used - where will all those laptops/briefcases go if there is no overhead rack?

[Fran]

I'd not noticed that there was no luggage racks on the new trains. This sounds like a real disadvantage over the current service for long distance commuters from Amersham into the City

Whilst I understand the usefulness of luggage racks in general, I don't understand why commuters from Amersham are more likely to need them than commuters from, say, Harrow. Does a slightly longer journey mean you take more stuff into work?!

[KevinR]

Whilst I understand the usefulness of luggage racks in general, I don't understand why commuters from Amersham are more likely to need them than commuters from, say, Harrow. Does a slightly longer journey mean you take more stuff into work?!

It's not that the longer distance commuters take more stuff with them, it's that the longer the journey the greater the impact of being in an uncomfortable position.

When I take the busy tube from Oxford Circus to Baker St I do not mind having my heavy laptop bag on my lap as it is a short 3/4 minute trip. I would not want to have the same bag on my lap on long journey on a busy train (the tube from Amersham to Aldgate takes 62 minutes and from Amersham to Baker Street takes 46 minutes). The longer the journey the greater the potential discomfort.

Given that, I suspect that Harrow commuters will also be interested in the lack of luggage racks. The Harrow journey into London is 27 minutes shorter than the same Amersham journey (Harrow to Baker St takes 19 minutes) but this is still a reasonably long journey.

[Matthew (Admin/MPJ)]

There is also the fact that people may not want the items on their lap and will put them on the floor. This will cause a nuisance and take up space for passengers who have to stand and create obstructions for those trying to move around the car.

I heard it said that luggage racks are not liked as they block views of advertisements!

[mstapley]

I love the completely open layout with one carriage seemlessly blending into the next. I also love the airconditioning, although this will consume energy, be heavy and will just shift more heat into the tunnels, I can't wait for this.
My pleas for the new design would be...
Shift all ancilirary equipment from under the passengers seats to under the train out of the way, and make ALL seating and arm rests foldable. This gives maximum room in the train at peak times, but also allows maximum comfort when the train is lightly loaded. Just look at the Paris Metro..... I really hate that on current tube trains I cannot tuck my feet away under the seat because there is a tonne of junk which would be better located underneath the train floor, in the way.

Other pleas I would have would be to consider not just using LED lighting for the taillights on the train, but also for some of the interior lighting as well. The brightness, energy efficency, long life span have improved massively and the costs are plummitting for these. LED spotlights which switch on when the train doors open, could also be mounted underneath the train doors to illuminate the platform edge.

I also would love to see windows in the front and rear of the train so passengers can see not only from one end of the train to the other, but also all of the way out of the front and rear as well.

If the new trains could incorporate crumple zones at strategic points in the carriages and at the front and rear of the train to assorb impact in the event of a crash these would significantly improve safety.

Standardizing the design as much as possible, and making all the anciliary equipment modular would reduce both production and maintainance costs in the long-run. On many modern trains around the world, all the hardware that makes the train operate, is fixed under the train in modules with four bolts and socketed cabling linking it to the adjacent modules. If a component fails, in the depot, they can just undo the four bolts, disconnect a few connectors, swap a replacement module straight in, let the train go straight back into service, and repair the defective module at the own leisure, so it can be swapped back into another train at a later date after its fixed.

Certainly little thought has been given on this early design to luggage storage, or things like bins, or passenger accessible fire extinguishers.

[alfa-man]

Passenger accessable extinguishers, your having a laugh, the children and adults(when inebriated) missuse them. When they were a standard fixture across the network they were regularly thrown through windows, and even from the interconnecting doors at unsuspecting passengers on the platform as the train departs.

[Max]

Intersting range of views.

Perhaps you should consider that legislation/customer ergonomics also plays its part when a train is designed i.e. is the train user friendly for the blind,the handicapped and mothers with young babies?

Part of the reason the trains are set up this way is to make their life a little easier. The needs of the rush hour crowd are not the be-all and end-all.

Would any of you really stand up and say your needs outweigh those members of the groups above?

[Matthew (MPJ/Admin)]

Would any of you really stand up and say your needs outweigh those members of the groups above?

I am a member of one of the groups above.

The need to provide for these groups is indeed an issue. But the needs of the long distance commuter are different to those of the inner city traveller. There will be less of above groups in the outer suburbs, so the need for the same provision of facilities is less. Trains for outer suburbs / long distance commuters serve a different purpose and therefore should perhaps be different. This fact has to be weighed against the extra cost of having more non standard trains on the whole network. Why are Chiltern Trains so different to proposed S stock trains? It is because they are designed to serve a different passenger need. They have good facilities for the groups of people above, but do not have to cater for inner city workings.

The fact that the Met serves long distance commuters is an accident of history. It would be good if the different needs of all the passenger could be met, otherwise there is a danger they will find alternative means of travel.

[Metman]

Personally, I really don't like the interior design at all for the S stock. It doesn't really suit any of the lines that it will opertate on. The current layout on the C stock is excellent because none of the seating is transverse and there is maximum passenger flow. These trains are short and fill up very quickly. The new layout has a mix of seating. Why an earth would anyone want to waste the space on these new trains with transverse seats that stick out into the gangway and will make people and wheelchairs slalom their way through the train!

It must be remembered that the S stock is only the same width of the current C stock. So infact the trains could have less space per car! On the flip side, the seating for the Met line is crazy! Only 304 seats would be provided (34% or third less seats). More seats could be added by making most of the seats 2+2 (just like the C stock when it was originally designed) except at each end where the connection is. Here tip up seats must be provided because it would be these areas where wheelchairs and most of the standing passengers could reside. This could increase seating to 320 seats

I can understand the need for generic trains but the design solution really helps nobody. With my solution there will be a few more seats for the Met passengers and more room for the Circle (if it still exists in a few years), District and Hammersmith services. Lets face it, the 7 car trains will all move around the lines and be fully interchaged regularly, but the 8 car Met trains will only be confined to the main line service and maybe Barking(?) so something slightly different can be done. Perhaps Metronet could refurb their last D stock train in the new layout and try it in service!

Even elements of Bombardier are unhappy about the design, it is Metronet that needs a kicking!

P.s. a max speed of 62mph, not quite the speed I was hoping for, the A stock was built for 70mph running!

[Tallguy]

Does A stock ever run at 70mph? If not, what is the maximum speed it achieves?

[Matthew (MPJ/Admin)]

Does A stock ever run at 70mph? If not, what is the maximum speed it achieves?

Designed for 70 mph. Used to run at that. Now line speed is 60 and A stock restricted to 50mph owing to cracks in bogies

[hyposmurf]

I've always thought it a bit daft as to why there are no WC's on the met line trains.Fair enough if youre just using the underground, but the met line you can easily be on it over an hour and if there should be delays!Just think its a bit behind the times at present and haven't seen any WC's in the new design.Chiltern Railways have them so why not on the met trains to?Space saving I guess,disabled access etc

[Metman]

You got it! The lack of toilets is down to space saving! When the new Amersham line stock was being planned just after the war a whole range of ideas were put forward. A WC was one of them, but also a buffet car was considered! In the end London Transport scrapped the plans for the reasons you suggested. In fact the Met Main Line only withdrew its first class service in 1941. Previously a pullman service was also included in some Aylesbury trains and the Met had built 2 Pullman cars and converted two smaller coachs into the Rothchild saloon. The aim was to compete with the Great Central Marylebone trains that ran alongside.

Today only the Chiltern Trains have a toilet but I believe no first class. This was to get in extra seats on the increasingly overcrowded turbos. The reason the Turbos have toilets is because some of their services run huge distances out to Kidderminster and obviously you wouldn't want to get caught short on that journey!

It is sad to see that some people still manage to find their own loo on the Met line. I saw some chavs the other day 'paying a call' where the guard used to stand on the A stock- bring back crew operation!

[hyposmurf]

It is sad to see that some people still manage to find their own loo on the Met line.

Yes it is sad but I can see why.If youre on a night late train needing the WC,so you if youre really desperate and there is no WC on the met line youll get off at the next stop delaying your journey.Then find the toilets are out of order.Usually if you ask staff where the nearest toilet is, they are not sure or the toilet is a long trek away,such as Baker Street station.When I used to use Baker Street station the toilets were often out of order and the nearest one was up about 4 flights of stairs,out of the station,across the congested Marylebone Road,then into the pub and up another couple of flights of stairs.
Comparing the Chiltern turbo to the met trains,the latter is not in the same league.Anyone I know travelling to London who's unfamiliar I'll usually advise them to use the Chiltern Turbo,the ride is comfier,quieter,faster and more reliable.It's good to see new stock for the met line being introduced, but its so far ahead I may start driving into work instead.Why did it take so long for them to invest in new stock.
Here's a number of the repetative problems that I've experienced with the met line over the 20 years I've used them:

• The signalling has been defective year in year out
• The same trains for over the last 40 years,little has appears to have changed just cosmetic finishes
• The doors stay open at every station wasting any heat that the tiny heaters produce in the winter.Nearly everyone on the train in winter will be wearing outdoor clothes jacket included to sit inside the train!
• The sound insulation if there is any is insufficient
• There is no AC for the Summer,only small trickle of fresh air provided by open windows.No solar film on the windows this would at least somewhat with the cooling in summer.It's torture on the trains in the peak of the summer.I go on fine come off feeling exhausted.
• The train tannoy system is either too quiet or has lots of interferance.
• The couplings between the trains often sqeak alot.At times it sounds like that fatal high pitched squeal in star trek.
• The is often a long wait at Rickmansworth for driver change over.
• The trains are often over crowded
• The three person seats are doubled up so six people sit facing each other.This is terrible everytime someone on the furthest from the middle aisle wants to exit the train

[Matthew (MPJ/Admin)]

The provision of WC s on trains in the area is interesting (can't believe I just wrote that phrase!). When introduced the Chiltern 165 Turbos "only" went as far as Banbury, but even the trip to Aylesbury at an hour I would suggest would need a toilet. Thus travelling from Aldgate to Amersham is roughly the same time, with no WC. As said above, after the War many experiments were done with coach layout to suit "Amersham Man" - the long distance commuter. Up to the introduction of the A stock, services to Amersham resembled more main line coaches with compartments. It was recognised increased standing was required, but not at the expense of the comfort of long distance travellers. It seems this view is no longer the case as it appears the new S stock trains are too much concerned with meeting the needs of the inner city traveller. Since the Met main line stock will be 8 car and the rest of the sub surface 7 car, it would seem possible to me for the Met stock to be slightly different, especially since the trains are designed not to be split.

With regards to WC s on the Chiltern routes, prior to the 165 turbos, the line used 110 dmus. These were introduced in about 1958. At that time, services out of Marylebone still travelled north of Aylesbury to Nottingham. The 110 units had one carriage (out of 4) with a WC, it was in the middle of the coach between first and second class. This was the only coach fully gang wayed. If you got on the wrong coach at Marylebone, you could have a ling journey to Nottingham with out access to a WC unless you physically changed coaches at a station, not always possible.

[hyposmurf]

As said above, after the War many experiments were done with coach layout to suit "Amersham Man" - the long distance commuter.

I've often wondered what there idea of average man was when they designed the trains,perhaps a little under 5ft and underweight.I'm only 5'10.5" tall and slim build,even I find I can't fit on the seats comfortabley with someone the same build next to me or other passengers have problems passing me.Sorry to go on a bit, but I've put up with the met line for over 20years and only seen cosmetic changes in that time,like station upgrades and nice new uniforms,ticket barriers etc.Surely the fundemental improvements should have been made to general performance and passenger comfort.

[Matthew (MPJ/Admin)]

Some answer, not that I am happy about them

Here's a number of the repetative problems that I've experienced with the met line over the 20 years I've used them:

• The signalling has been defective year in year out

Designed in the 1950s and amazing how good it was to last this long. new signalling starts to be introduced at the Amersham end soon, with entire sub surface liens completed either 2015 or 2018, can't remember. The new signalling will allow for more trains, but to get full benefit will require S Stock, the system also has to accommodate Chiltern services. Over recent years the timetables have been changed to reduce the number of cross track movements, this has made things more reliable. Thus Uxbridge services tend to stick to the slow lines from Harrow, where as Watford and Amersham use fast, this means less crossing making it more reliable. You do get a scrum at Harrow though as passengers from Uxbridge rush over to a fast train.

• The same trains for over the last 40 years,little has appears to have changed just cosmetic finishes

They have lasted well, but show age. Trains are designed to last for years. The 1938 tube stock is still being used on the Isle of White

• The doors stay open at every station wasting any heat that the tiny heaters produce in the winter.Nearly everyone on the train in winter will be wearing outdoor clothes jacket included to sit inside the train!

LUL don't like passengers opening and closing doors. Some of the tube trains had open close buttons but these have been de activated. One of the reasons they don't like them is because they say passengers don't know how to use them. But hang on, half the trains at Amersham are Chiltern and we manage with those? There have also been instances of passengers causing a nuisance by opening doors just for the hell of it. I think it would be sensible to have doors closed unless they need to be opened, especially on the Met

• There is no AC for the Summer,only small trickle of fresh air provided by open windows.No solar film on the windows this would at least somewhat with the cooling in summer.It's torture on the trains in the peak of the summer.I go on fine come off feeling exhausted.

An issue is where does all the heat go when the trains are in the tunnels? Another issue is what will happen if the A C fails, there will be no windows that can be opened. This has caused some problems on main line trains. It will not be nice to be stuck in an AC failed train in a tunnel in the rush hour. If the AC fails, the train will have to be withdrawn, how reliable is it going to be?

• The train tannoy system is either too quiet or has lots of interferance.

At least there is one now, they were not designed with them. How will people feel when we get automated announcements at every station?

• The is often a long wait at Rickmansworth for driver change over.

This is so annoying. If a driver is due to book on, then they should be ready, unless the train has arrived early. On the other hand, if a driver has been delayed owing to a delay on the service he brought in, then one can understand the problem. The stopping at Wembley off peak is also a nuisance. Driver change over takes place there, but it never used to.

• The three person seats are doubled up so six people sit facing each other.This is terrible everytime someone on the furthest from the middle aisle wants to exit the train

I will only sit on a two seater seat as I hate clambering over people to get out.

There was much delay in getting improvments as the funding of LUL had to be sorted out. PPP was the answer, we shall see

[Tallguy]

I've often wondered what there idea of average man was when they designed the trains,perhaps a little under 5ft and underweight.I'm only 5'10.5" tall and slim build,even I find I can't fit on the seats comfortabley with someone the same build next to me or other passengers have problems passing me.Sorry to go on a bit, but I've put up with the met line for over 20years and only seen cosmetic changes in that time,like station upgrades and nice new uniforms,ticket barriers etc.Surely the fundemental improvements should have been made to general performance and passenger comfort.

So you think it's bad for you? I'm 6ft 6ins tall, weigh 18.5 stone and look like a thug with my close shaved head and black bomber jacket!! These trains were designed long before ergonomics became as big a thing as it is today. The lack of grab handles above the 3 facinng 3 seats is a pain. Fortunately I get out at Farringdon where anything up to half the people on the train get off in the peak period so I don't have a problem getting out.

Can be a real pain at other stations when the train is crowded though.

[Metman]

Lay off the A stock guys it has served the line really well. The ride can be a bit suspect but that's partly down to poor track. New Flatbottom rails are in use in the Baker Street area now and the ride is vastly improved. I think the A stock was an excellent solution, and it still works well. I think we are lucky, at one stage R stock was being planned for the Amersham line which only seated 40 per car! Check that out on the net sometime!

The refurbished A stock trains are actually quite different from when orginally delivered. The interiors are more fire resistant, there are more grab handles, the brakes are better, the suspension was upgraded (don't laugh!) and recently roll back protection was added. The wiring was modified, the window hoppers redesigned and more powerful headlights fitted. The motors and PCM equipment were given a good overhaul.

Enjoy the A stock while we still have it! I'm not looking forward to all the chavs running down the length of the train hitting stabbing and robbing people that happened recently on the Jubilee and Northern Lines! Least we have the center cabs to split up the train!

Sure the trains creek and lurch a bit but at least they have character, the most comfy seats in London(with high backs!) and lovely warm heaters. Friends that use other lines like the Bakerloo and Central lines always have a nice word to say about the A stock!

WCs? Well where would they go? LU need to (and they are slowly) keep adding toilets to the refurbished stations. Are there any other metro trains in the world with toilets on? If there were WCs on Met trains they would be filthy, smoke riden holes where people would go to shoot up or do a line!

[hyposmurf]

[quote name='Matthew (MPJ/Admin)' post='6397' date='Apr 4 2007, 05:39 PM']Some answer, not that I am happy about them
[quote]Designed in the 1950s and amazing how good it was to last this long. new signaling starts to be introduced at the Amersham end soon, with entire sub surface liens completed either 2015 or 2018, can't remember. The new signaling will allow for more trains, but to get full benefit will require S Stock, the system also has to accommodate Chiltern services. Over recent years the timetables have been changed to reduce the number of cross track movements, this has made things more reliable. Thus Uxbridge services tend to stick to the slow lines from Harrow, where as Watford and Amersham use fast, this means less crossing making it more reliable. You do get a scrum at Harrow though as passengers from Uxbridge rush over to a fast train.
They have lasted well, but show age. Trains are designed to last for years. The 1938 tube stock is still being used on the Isle of White[/quote]

Yes it certainly is amazing how long the trains have lasted, when you consider the sheer weight of these machines running up and down track most of the day/night.I also find it amazing how long passengers have had to wait to see any noticeable improvements to the overall service.I understand that the stock have to last as they have such a high purchase cost, but it's a shame that the couldn't have been modified at a faster pace, to keep up with present day needs.The journey times don't seem to have improved,signals seem to defective much the same as before.The general ride (until the recent line work) has been incredibly bumpy.If you ever traveled midday on the met it was a fairly common occurrence to see people almost coming off their seats or loosing their footing.
Yes I've seen the rush many a time at Harrow of passengers desperate for the driver or tannoy operator to work out whether the train is an Amersham or Watford train.

[quote]LUL don't like passengers opening and closing doors. Some of the tube trains had open close buttons but these have been de activated. One of the reasons they don't like them is because they say passengers don't know how to use them. But hang on, half the trains at Amersham are Chiltern and we manage with those? There have also been instances of passengers causing a nuisance by opening doors just for the hell of it. I think it would be sensible to have doors closed unless they need to be opened, especially on the Met[/quote]Exactly I totally agree.Doors get opened even when passengers are exiting from those doors.I've not noticed many problems with the Chiltern turbo door's operation and safety.

[quote]An issue is where does all the heat go when the trains are in the tunnels? Another issue is what will happen if the A C fails, there will be no windows that can be opened. This has caused some problems on main line trains. It will not be nice to be stuck in an AC failed train in a tunnel in the rush hour. If the AC fails, the train will have to be withdrawn, how reliable is it going to be?[/quote]

Yes there are issues with the Chiltern turbo AC, such as in peak hours/peak of summer it struggles to cope with the demands laid on it.But you can't expect this system to be utterly perfect.I'd rather a train with this problem occurring now and then, rather than the train continuously hot in the summer.

[quote]At least there is one now, they were not designed with them. How will people feel when we get automated announcements at every station?[/quote]Seriously there were no tannoys?Just tannoys on the stations?

[quote]This is so annoying. If a driver is due to book on, then they should be ready, unless the train has arrived early. On the other hand, if a driver has been delayed owing to a delay on the service he brought in, then one can understand the problem. The stopping at Wembley off peak is also a nuisance. Driver change over takes place there, but it never used to.[/quote]

This is another problem you don't find with the Chiltern line trains,no long stop at Ricky and they even stop as less stations to improve journey times.

[quote]I will only sit on a two seater seat as I hate clambering over people to get out.[/quote]Now I don't have such a long journey I tend to stand up, so I have more space.If you sit on a 3 seater and you happen to have someone heavy sit in the center, as the seat corners compress less, you end sitting tilted the whole journey, which is damm uncomfortable.

[quote]There was much delay in getting improvements as the funding of LUL had to be sorted out. PPP was the answer, we shall see[/quote]

There certainly has been some delay regarding improvements!
My apologies for going a bit off topic and detracting the attention away from the new proposed trains(they do look promising) but I feel that too many passengers just sit back and have put up with a poor service for years.

I got so caught up in quotes I quoted myself!

[147]

The delay at Rickmansworth Is often due to the fact that that timetabled running time from Amersham to Ricky is 12.5 minutes. A driver observing all speed limits can still end up at Rickmansworth two minutes early.

[exluldriver]

The new S stock train that has arrived at Neasden depot today, is a pre-production train. It is going to be thoroughly tested on the north end of the Met line before going into limited passenger service(not for a while though) to gauge the public opinions. only when production trains start to arrive(approx late 2010 early 2011) will new trains work the whole met line. A second pre-production train will arrive in the new year and will probably be used for training purposes. I understand the pre-production trains will return to Derby to be formed into 7 car trains. I have been on the train and I think the general public will be amazed by the spaciousness and technical abilities of the train. The train has been quoted as a 'computer on wheels'
Hope this info is useful