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Changes To Peak Train Times From December 2011


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#1 Matthew (Admin/MPJ)

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 11:07 AM

I know there is already a thread concerning the changes to off peak train times from December (all Amersham trains to and from London being all stations).

However, there are also changes to peak time trains, hence this new topic.

Chiltern have announced some "minor" changes, but no timetable published yet.

If you look on their web site for train times in December, you can see the following train times


Amersham to Marylebone

05:56
06:26
06:44
07:00
07:16
07:32
07:48
08:05
08:19
08:35
08:51
09:26

From Marylebone to Amersham

16:43
16:53
17:27
17:46
17:59
18:33
18:50

If these times are correct, then it seems there is a less regular service in the evening.

There will apparently be an extra Met service each hour - stopping all stations - but no details of these train times or other Met train time changes.

If anyone has any more details, this would be useful.
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#2 PeterC

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 12:55 PM

Full timetable now available. Service intervals in the evening are marginally less regular but looks like essentially the same service. I imagine that the changes are to avoid conflict with the additional Met slows between Moor Park and Amersham.


PeterC aka Chilternbirder

#3 funkydoodycool

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 05:22 PM

Not quite the same service. In the peak time, Amersham regains several Aldgates, but all but 4 of them are either semi-fast or all stations. Off peak all ex-Amersham trains are Aldgates (instead of Baker Streets) but every off-peak train is all stations.

I've scanned the Mon-Fri southbound pages for you guys, make of it what you will.

Metropolitan Line Timetable from 11th Dec 2011 (8.77MB)

#4 PeterC

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 05:44 PM

Not quite the same service.

Would be a very different service if it ran to Aldgate, all the previous posts were about Chiltern.
PeterC aka Chilternbirder

#5 Matthew (MPJ/Admin)

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 06:46 PM

Not quite the same service. In the peak time, Amersham regains several Aldgates, but all but 4 of them are either semi-fast or all stations. Off peak all ex-Amersham trains are Aldgates (instead of Baker Streets) but every off-peak train is all stations.

I've scanned the Mon-Fri southbound pages for you guys, make of it what you will.

Metropolitan Line Timetable from 11th Dec 2011 (8.77MB)


Thanks for this.

Looking at off peak, why would someone catch a Met train at say 10:47 if they want the West End, when if they wait for the 10:56 Chiltern to Marylebone, the Chiltern service arrives at Marylebone before the Met train gets to Baker Street! Change to Bakerloo at both stations is about the same time.

Why could they not spread the departure times out more from Amersham off peak to make the Met services more useful for West End travellers?
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#6 funkydoodycool

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 08:34 PM

Would be a very different service if it ran to Aldgate, all the previous posts were about Chiltern.


I know. And now we know all the differences.

There is not a lot of reason to get the Met off-peak at all, West End or otherwise, except for an easy journey to the City or King's Cross.

Time will tell I guess - maybe it'll work.... I haven't worked for LU long, so I have no idea.....

#7 David P

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 09:19 PM

There is not a lot of reason to get the Met off-peak at all, West End or otherwise, except for an easy journey to the City or King's Cross.


Or an easy change to the Jubilee at Finchley Road.
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#8 roob_the_doob

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 11:33 PM

Or an easy change to the Jubilee at Finchley Road.

It being an easy change rather depends on whether you still have any feeling in your backside, after sitting on those appalling new seats for an even longer period of time.

#9 147

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 08:39 AM

Thanks for this.

Looking at off peak, why would someone catch a Met train at say 10:47 if they want the West End, when if they wait for the 10:56 Chiltern to Marylebone, the Chiltern service arrives at Marylebone before the Met train gets to Baker Street! Change to Bakerloo at both stations is about the same time.

Why could they not spread the departure times out more from Amersham off peak to make the Met services more useful for West End travellers?


Retaining the 06 & 36 departure instead of the 16 &46 when the through Chesham service was introduced would have meant the possible disruption on the the northbound to the Chiltern Service if there is late running on the Chesham Branch. And we all know that we can't disrupt the Chiltern. How many users from Amersham will love the Chiltern when there is no Underground service from Amersham and they are paying proper Chiltern Fares ?

#10 roob_the_doob

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 12:07 PM

Retaining the 06 & 36 departure instead of the 16 &46 when the through Chesham service was introduced would have meant the possible disruption on the the northbound to the Chiltern Service if there is late running on the Chesham Branch. And we all know that we can't disrupt the Chiltern. How many users from Amersham will love the Chiltern when there is no Underground service from Amersham and they are paying proper Chiltern Fares ?

Yes, it seems more than plausible that the strategy is to make the Met service so awful that no-one uses it. They will then use that to justify cutting it further, and then completely.

#11 PeterC

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 08:19 PM

They will then use that to justify cutting it further, and then completely.


IIRC the January fare rises aren't too bad but with the current financial situation it would not suprise me if fares for stations outside Greater London went up to National Rail levels in 2013 or 14. There really is no justification for our commuting to be subsidised by the council tax in Bromley and Croydon.
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#12 Eaton

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 07:37 AM

Unfortunately a lot of people either forgot or didn't know about the change to the 0631 Chiltern Turbo. My husband said that there were people running onto the platform, looking at their watches in disbelief when it pulled out at 0626 yesterday morning. Due to the frozen rain our frostscreen had stuck to our windscreen so we only just made it but we had remembered the new time we just weren't expecting to have to chip the frostscreen off the car... B)
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#13 ianbartlett

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 01:47 PM

Has anyone else tried the new off peak service from either Amersham or Chesham? I did so on Wednesday night; the journey was slow, tedious and extremely frustrating. I cannot believe that anyone thinks a 20% increase in journey time is acceptable at a time when, in general, rail journey speeds are getting quicker.

I notice that the MP for Pinner (Nick Hurst - www.nickhurst.com) has a petition on his website and a feedback form for his constituents to lobby for service improvements to the Met line. Can I suggest that our MP does likewise - it seems that the louder you shout, the more you get heard.

#14 147

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 01:56 PM

The pinner MP got what he wanted a service enhancement at the expense of the Amersham and Chesham service. Probably doesn't help that his council tax payers help pay for TFL and we don't.

#15 Matthew (Admin/MPJ)

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 02:13 PM

The pinner MP got what he wanted a service enhancement at the expense of the Amersham and Chesham service. Probably doesn't help that his council tax payers help pay for TFL and we don't.


Nor do many other commuters who travel in London contribute towards the TFL subsidy. It always used to be the case as well that travelers to and from stations in Hertfordshire and Buckinghamshire paid a proportionally higher price to take account of the lower / no subsidy, hence the old zones a to d (now 7-9). TFL are also quote happy to base a depot outside of the Lonodn Aeembly area at Rickmansworth and also plan and now hopefully soon start the new Croxley link (supported by Herts CC).

The history of the line which has caused a funding issue should not be an excuse to provide a worse service. I have to say the peak changes are also worse for me, although I will reserve judgement until the timetable settles down, but suffice to say I now leave Amersham earlier and arrive at work later than I did with the old timetable!
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#16 147

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 02:31 PM

Nor do many other commuters who travel in London contribute towards the TFL subsidy. It always used to be the case as well that travelers to and from stations in Hertfordshire and Buckinghamshire paid a proportionally higher price to take account of the lower / no subsidy, hence the old zones a to d (now 7-9). TFL are also quote happy to base a depot outside of the Lonodn Aeembly area at Rickmansworth and also plan and now hopefully soon start the new Croxley link (supported by Herts CC).

The history of the line which has caused a funding issue should not be an excuse to provide a worse service. I have to say the peak changes are also worse for me, although I will reserve judgement until the timetable settles down, but suffice to say I now leave Amersham earlier and arrive at work later than I did with the old timetable!


How much longer will there be a depot a Rickmansworth ?
The Croxley link now has the funding. I can see the fast line being handed over to Railtrack when this happens. And Chiltern Rail and their fares being the only option from Amersham,Chesham, Chalfont and Chorleywood.

#17 PeterC

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 08:24 PM

The Croxley link now has the funding. I can see the fast line being handed over to Railtrack when this happens. And Chiltern Rail and their fares being the only option from Amersham,Chesham, Chalfont and Chorleywood.

Chiltern doesn't have the spare capacity in rolling stock or platforms at Marylebone. The "dowry" that they would need would be a lot more than the current running costs.

I have not experienced the new times so far as I have not been in the office this week. As I travel from Chalfont and Latimer I am not much bothered if a particuar train starts from Chesham or Amersham but the scheduled journey times are within those previously achieved in practice (normally at least 10 minutes more than published) so it the real journey time doesn't increase then the two extra slows will be a bonus.
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#18 ianbartlett

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 11:13 PM

1324045887[/url]' post='32638']
How much longer will there be a depot a Rickmansworth ?
The Croxley link now has the funding. I can see the fast line being handed over to Railtrack when this happens. And Chiltern Rail and their fares being the only option from Amersham,Chesham, Chalfont and Chorleywood.


I think what we should watch for is Chiltern pulling out of the Met line route and it transferring to TfL, either as a Met line extension or transferring to the Overground. TfL have made it clear they aspire to running outer London suburban services and the DfT are quite keen on the idea. The Met branch of the Chiltern line must be in the frame as an option. That's why it is so important to show TfL it cannot do as it pleases and ignore passenger demands in the way it has with the Met line timetable.

#19 ianbartlett

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:34 AM

For information, below is a copy of a letter I have sent to Angela Back, Manager of the Metropolitan Line. I have copied it to the Mayor of London, Val Shawcross (Chair of the GLA Transport Committee) and the Editor of the Bucks Examiner. It's also been copied to Cheryl Gillan. If anyone wishes to join me in lobbying on this issue, do please feel free to use the text of my letter where appropriate:



Ms Angela Back
Metropolitan Line Manager
London Underground Customer Services
55 Broadway
London
SW1H 0BD


Cc: Boris Johnson, Mayor of London
Val Shawcross, AM,
Chair ofthe GLA Transport Committee
Editor, Buckinghamshire Examiner



19 December 2011



Dear Ms Back,

Metropolitan Linetimetable change, wef: Sunday 11 December 2011

I am writing to express my extreme dissatisfaction with the newly introduced timetable for the Metropolitan Line; off peak services to London are now almost 20% slower for Chesham and Amersham travellers with all trains calling at all stations to London. Consultation and communication surrounding the implementation of such a major change has been almost non-existent, demonstrating a complete lack of transparency around LUL's decision making and presenting an impression of underhand behaviour to implement changes which are almost certain to anger passengers.

I used the new off peak service on Wednesday 14 December to travel into London and to return later the same evening. My experience of the journey was that it is now slow, tedious and utterly frustrating; this will significantly affect whether I decide to travel into London for leisure in future or travel elsewhere instead. To take over an hour to travel roughly 28 miles from Chesham to London is excruciating and is unacceptable. Journey times from comparable origins such as Berkhamsted and High Wycombe are much faster and it is perverse that London Underground has sought to slow journeys on its own services at a time when most people's lives are getting more hectic and pressured. I have heard it said that LUL considers waiting times to be more of an issue than travel times; this may be true for many of LUL's services, but it is most certainly not true for passengers from Chesham who have a longer journey time and only have a train every 30 minutes. Amersham travellers do, at least, have the option of travelling in on the Chiltern Railways service; Chesham travellers do not have this direct alternative option yet they pay the same fares as those travelling from Amersham. This is unfair.

The 'all stations' service pattern is not fit for purpose on this lengthy outer suburban route and, had any meaningful consultation been carried out, this would have been immediately apparent to LUL. I note that last year, when LUL was planning to implement through services from Chesham to London, that a highly visible publicity campaign involving a survey of users,the TfL website and other media, was executed in order to bring the change to public attention.

One must wonder why there has been a complete lack of publicity surrounding this rather more major change; did LUL expect a negative reaction and decide to keep this quiet hoping to present it as a fait accompli? I presume you planned the December 2011 timetable change well in advance, so why was this change not communicated during the consultation for the Chesham direct service? This may well have influenced customers' views on whether they wished to have a direct service or retain a shuttle operation which could have connected with faster Chiltern Railways services at Chalfont and Latimer. Presumably you have future plans for the timetable on the Metropolitan line for the period beyond the signalling upgrade which is now underway. Will this involve removal of the peak hour fast services? Some clarity around your future plans for both peak and off peak services would be appreciated.

There is a wider question here of accountability. I understand from a letter written by Peter Hendy to my MP, Cheryl Gillan, that the Mayor of London is responsible for services on the entire Metropolitan Line, despite stations north of Moor Park being beyond the GLA area. This raises serious questions about accountability. As residents of these areas, we do not have the ability to vote for the London Mayor, so no power to hold him/her to account for the services provided by LUL. I am aware that TfL has aspirations to operate mainline rail services outside the GLA area. If this new timetable and lack of consultation/communication surrounding its implementation is an example of how LUL, as a large element of TfL, treats its customers who reside outside the GLA area, this is show-stopping reason for this aspiration to be halted in its tracks.

I would be grateful if you would respond to the queries I have raised here and now undertake a full and proper consultation exercise with residents of Amersham and Chesham (and other stations north of Moor Park who are similarly affected) to establish a timetable which is fit for purpose. I would also be grateful if, in future, you would ensure that your decision making processes are fair and transparent.

Yours sincerely



Ian Bartlett

#20 PeterC

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 02:29 PM

First experience this morning - departure times slightly different - journey time to The City much the same as before. Its annoying that the most suitable train of the day is a few minutes earlier but no big deal.

IIRC the off peak changes are primarily to maintain service levels on the slow line between Moor Park and Wemblety park after cuts to the Watford and Uxbridge branches. I must admit that I am suprised that we lost all the fasts, I am sure that Pinner doesn't need and increase from 6 to 8 trains per hour off peak whatever their MP may say.

One must wonder why there has been a complete lack of publicity surrounding this rather more major change; did LUL expect a negative reaction and decide to keep this quiet hoping to present it as a fait accompli?

To be fair this has been known since May and was discussed on this board between May and July
PeterC aka Chilternbirder

#21 Matthew (Admin/MPJ)

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 02:53 PM

First experience this morning - departure times slightly different - journey time to The City much the same as before. Its annoying that the most suitable train of the day is a few minutes earlier but no big deal.

IIRC the off peak changes are primarily to maintain service levels on the slow line between Moor Park and Wemblety park after cuts to the Watford and Uxbridge branches. I must admit that I am suprised that we lost all the fasts, I am sure that Pinner doesn't need and increase from 6 to 8 trains per hour off peak whatever their MP may say.


To be fair this has been known since May and was discussed on this board between May and July


Although we discussed it here, I think the point is valid that TFL have not entered into discussion / consultation.

As for my experience, I am not going to raise any issue with TFL until I have given the timetable a chance to settle down. But my first impressions are not favourable. Off peak my train has been late, adding to the already long journey time, but 2 journeys is not enough to say this is permanently bad.

For peak travel, my usual fast service has been put back at least 15 minutes, so if I waited for that I would be late for work. Instead I have to catch the added extra service, which is all stations to Harrow. This service should get me to Finchley Road to allow me to make my connections (I then use Jubilee / North London line), but every train has so far been at least 5 mintues late at Finchely Road, often more, so this slower train cannot even keep to its timetable yet. As we pull into Harrow, the following Chiltern from Aylesbury arrives at the same time, so why do i bother catching the train I do! (apart from getting a seat and not having to rush over the bridge at Harrow!).

My journey home is not perhaps as bad, the usual fast train is now moved earlier so i can't get it, but 5 minutes behind is a new slow service, which get me home about 10 minutes before the following fast service.

I cannot use Chiltern as I have to go to Finchley Road. My wife travels to and from Wembley and she has a better service going home as more trains stop at Wembley, but is also delayed in the morning like me by the slower and changed train times. We don't expect trains to run at times just to suit us, but we would hope they managed to keep to their time table and arrive on time.

So, too early in the life of the timetable to complain, but so far not impressed. It does seem strange how offering a slower service compared to other lines trying to offer faster services can be seen as progress, especially as they are so far not even keeping to the new timetable.
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#22 ianbartlett

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 12:30 PM

Just to ensure people are aware...

There is to be a public meeting at Chesham Town Hall on Tuesday 10th January at 7.30pm to discuss the new Metropolitan Line timetable. Angela Back, the line's manager will be in attendance.

Do come along as this is probably the only opportunity you will get to be heard directly on this. Even if you only use the line in peak hours, you might want to ask LUL what their longer term plans are for the peak service - they have been strangely quiet on this but major changes are planned with the introduction of the new signalling which is currently being installed.

#23 Matthew (MPJ/Admin)

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Posted 03 January 2012 - 05:21 PM

I don't think I can get to that meeting. However I wounded if someone will ask Angela Back if she will be travelling back into London on the off peak service from Chesham after the meeting, or will she need to get home faster?
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#24 echinosum

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 01:12 PM

TfL/Chiltern appear to have surreptitiously changed the timetable since 11 Dec 11, at least in the morning peak. I happened to look at the list of train departure times on the platform at Chorleywood this morning, and spotted it had changed since the 11 Dec 2011 issue. I can't say exactly when this happened, because it is the first time I have looked at it since about 14 Dec, and I took 2 weeks off over Christmas. The only place you can discover this amended timetable, as far as I can see, is on the list of train departure times on the platforms at Met stations. I have checked the published timetables on TfL's and Chiltern's websites, and discovered they have not changed from the 11 Dec issue. But the platform sheets do appear to correspond to the times trains are actually turning up (my train never arrived less than 4 mins late in w/b 11 Dec). On the train I usually take, it is now described on the platform sheet as leaving 4 mins later than it is described in the published timetable. I asked at the info office in Marylebone this morning about the introduction of this amended timetable, but they (ie platform staff at Marylebone) had not been informed of any such amended timetable. I have sent in a comment to TfL asking what is going on, but it is too soon to expect a response. On the other hand, my northbound evening train is departing at the advertised time at Marylebone, although as it now is timetabled to depart Harrow 14 mins later it sometimes has to wait a couple of mins before leaving Harrow.

But this is only minor details of timing, not the broad issue of the major recasting of the timetable.

#25 Matthew (Admin/MPJ)

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 01:34 PM

I know Chiltern extended the leaf fall arrangements at the request of TFL, but they did it by delaying some trains rather than running them earlier. I can't find any details now, but it may have explained some changes.
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#26 PeterC

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 04:12 PM

Catching the 7:45 from Chalfont to the City the overall journey is about the same as it always was despite this being one of the semi fast services.
Clearly the retiming of the Chesham fasts is upsetting a few people but I am sure that the ones who are getting an extra quarter hour in bed because they no longer have to get a train earlier than they need aren't bothering to make a noise about it.

The off peak changes are another matter entirely.
PeterC aka Chilternbirder

#27 echinosum

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 04:28 PM

I think you must be right about the leaf-fall timetable thing, because my train is currently advertised on the platform as at precisely the time it was under the Autumn 11 Leaf Fall timetable. Since my train had been retimed 5 mins earlier in the Dec 11 timetable in comparison to the Dec 10 timetable, to get it to run to the Autumn 11 timetable, it had to be delayed, rather than advanced as is normally the case for a Leaf-fall adjustment.

It would just be nice if they would tell us, as most of us have been turning up 4 mins earlier than we were doing. and then had to wait for a train that has been apparently 4+ mins late every day. Adds up to 1000 mins time wasted a year. We'd also like to know when they really do start running the Dec 11 timetable, as I noticed a handful of customer's have apparently already compensated their behaviour to realising it will be 0727 not 0723.

It was apparent in w/b 11 Dec 11 that the new am peak timetable just didn't work, as the failure to run it persisted all week. But I do wonder how they manage to run an Autumn 11 leaf-fall timetable in the am peak together with a 11 Dec 11 off-peak timetable, one presumes they wouldn't meet well at the transition.

#28 echinosum

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 11:00 AM

The 11 Dec 11 timetable departure seems to have been reinstated yesterday. It was back on display at Chorleywood (looking very freshly glued), and the train did actually turn up at a time consistent with that - I very nearly missed it. No reply from LUL.

#29 Matthew (MPJ/Admin)

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 09:23 PM

Some claim it was presure from Nick Hurd MP that caused the time table change. He has a survey about the Met line at

http://www.nickhurd....etropolitanline

if anyone wants to put their views on it.
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#30 PeterC

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 09:11 AM

He asks "are you a user of the Metropolitan Line?" but clearly he doesn't use it himself judging by the photo of a tube train illustrating the piece.
PeterC aka Chilternbirder