165 replies to this topic

[James516]

If Tesco do open in Choices, will that be the end of the 'Sainsburys Local in the old Woolwich' rumour?

On a related note, my wife went in to the new cafe on Sycamore Rd yesterday and was very impressed. Anyone else been in? (See Eating and Sleeping Places, The Natural Cafe.)

[Alan]

Tesco don't always win on that front. Many years ago, they built a big new store in Hemel, complete with pharmacy, but they couldn't get a licence/permit/whatever because the local council wanted to protect local chemists. They still had the pharmacy counter, but couldn't issue prescriptions. That was true for many years (and may still be).

The same was true of the large one in Watford, but that was some yeras back so that may have changed

[Fran]

It's the front page story in today's Amersham Examiner and it seems pretty definite. When I was in Londis they said they're gutted, but want to try to keep going if they can, perhaps by branching out in some way.

[raj v]

It's the front page story in today's Amersham Examiner and it seems pretty definite. When I was in Londis they said they're gutted, but want to try to keep going if they can, perhaps by branching out in some way.

Hello all, I haven't posted for a while as my life has been overtaken by work!
I worked at Tesco HQ in operations for 2 years, leaving in 2004, and let me tell you - the Londis store does not have a chance, it will be blasted out of the water. Knowing the personalities i worked with in property, stores productivity and supply chain, I would say the writing is already on the wall for the Londis store. Tesco HQ people (in my experience) are single-minded, aggressive, ruthless and absolutely relentless. Rest assured the new store will be built on time and to budget and will carry exciting offers in the first few weeks. Local marketing in the press and vouchers distributed door-to-door will precede the opening and entice us. Good luck Londis is all i can say.

BTW, if anyone's interested my wedding plans are just about on track - 7 weeks and counting.

[Eaton]

Hello all, I haven't posted for a while as my life has been overtaken by work!

BTW, if anyone's interested my wedding plans are just about on track - 7 weeks and counting.

BTW, where are the invites? It could be the next forum meet venue.

[Janet-t]

[quote name='James516' date='Jun 27 2007, 09:37 AM' post='7896']
If Tesco do open in Choices, will that be the end of the 'Sainsburys Local in the old Woolwich' rumour?


As I heard from several sources, Sainsbury's and Marks feel they complement each other, so can happily work together across the street, but Saisnbury's couldn't get control of the three shops in a row that they'd need to make a viable sized store.
I believe that the one shop, not owned by them in the row, did not want to relocate. However there would be extra cutomers from those that would have been attracted to Amersham by Sainsburys and/or Marks, so it seems very short sighted.

If Tesco does take over choices, will Chesham be the nearest video store? I would have thought that they must bring in extra customers to neighbouring conveninece shops.

[Eaton]

If Tesco does take over choices, will Chesham be the nearest video store? I would have thought that they must bring in extra customers to neighbouring conveninece shops.

Good point. On the few occasions that I've got a dvd out from Choices I've always gone into Londis for wine, popcorn etc.

[Fran]

If Tesco does take over choices, will Chesham be the nearest video store?

I expect so, but it's a dying market. An increasing number of people have video on demand, others have access to services such as Sky Box Office and those who still want to rent a physical disk increasingly do so via websites that send them in the post.

I worked at Tesco HQ in operations for 2 years, leaving in 2004, and let me tell you - the Londis store does not have a chance, it will be blasted out of the water. Knowing the personalities i worked with in property, stores productivity and supply chain, I would say the writing is already on the wall for the Londis store. Tesco HQ people (in my experience) are single-minded, aggressive, ruthless and absolutely relentless. Rest assured the new store will be built on time and to budget and will carry exciting offers in the first few weeks. Local marketing in the press and vouchers distributed door-to-door will precede the opening and entice us. Good luck Londis is all i can say.

Interesting - and alarming. My husband was in Londis the other day and they have some anti-Tesco petition going, though sadly, I can't see that that will achieve anything (what grounds could the council have for opposing it that wouldn't be overturned at appeal?).

However, whilst I already knew that Tesco have a huge property portfolio, he also heard that Tesco is buying and trying to buy every small shop that's free (including butcher and florist, though he wasn't sure if that was in Amersham or Little Chalfont), with the plan of closing down all opposition, taking the best site for themselves and then leasing surplus property to other businesses that don't compete with them (though given the range of what Tesco now sell, what could that be?). But bear in mind that this is third or fourth hand and would be part of some broader strategy.

Regardless of quite how true that may be, in a free market, once one company becomes so powerful that the principle of competition is largely irrelevant, what can be done?

BTW, if anyone's interested my wedding plans are just about on track - 7 weeks and counting.

I wish you both the very best, on the day itself (hopefully the weather will have improved by then) and in your married life thereafter.

[Carl La Fong]

I have some experience of the Tesco supply chain people. Raj described them in a politer manner than I would.

The lady behind the counter in Londis told me that the only hope they had of stopping Tesco would be if an off licence application was refused - possible, as there is already Londis and Bargain Booze within doors of each other - but conceded that this was a very slim hope. As we know, Tesco will stop at nothing to get their own way. Take Gerrards Cross as a good and local example.

I'm already on a mission not to shop at Tesco. There are a multitude of reasons for this, none of which I'll bother to go into. I'll concede that at times it's downright inconvenient and costly to keep this up. But it looks as though my life is about to be made just a tad more difficult if I can't count on an independent convenience store that doesn't belong to the behemoth.

Incidently, is there anything Tesco cannot supply these days? I can only think of cars and houses, and even so they can lend you the money to buy one with.

[Matthew (MPJ/Admin)]

Incidently, is there anything Tesco cannot supply these days? I can only think of cars and houses, and even so they can lend you the money to buy one with.

I think one of the super markets is getting into housing, it might be tesco. They will sell your house for 199 or rather, they help you do a private sale.

In my experiance, it is hard to sell to tesco, they demand low prices and specific product requirements, but as a supplier, if you can get into them, it is good - or should be.

[Fran]

Incidently, is there anything Tesco cannot supply these days? I can only think of cars and houses, and even so they can lend you the money to buy one with.

I think one of the super markets is getting into housing, it might be tesco.

Yes, they do offer loans to buy homes and cars, and yes, they actually sell houses too (55 currently listed in "Amersham", though that included ones in St Giles). However, they're all listed as fish4homes ones, so I suppose they share the commission.

However, the only cars they sell are toy ones - bit of an oversight there!

And of course once you've bought and paid for your car and home, they'll sell you the insurance and breakdown cover as well.

Oh - and you can use Clubcard points for funerals, so it really can be from the cradle to the grave if you like (which I don't)!

[David P]

I'm already on a mission not to shop at Tesco. There are a multitude of reasons for this, none of which I'll bother to go into. I'll concede that at times it's downright inconvenient and costly to keep this up. But it looks as though my life is about to be made just a tad more difficult if I can't count on an independent convenience store that doesn't belong to the behemoth.

I suspect you will be a member of a very small minority.

I am pretty sure that probably 95% of all new Tescos attract a lot of local opposition at the planning stage. I am equally sure that probably 99% are hugely successful when they open. Tesco management is very good - they don't make mistakes, they know what the real acceptance will be and can ignore the amateur referendums and petitions.

From all the fuss in the press one would expect the Gerrards Cross Tesco to be a disaster as most of the population don't want it. However, when (not if) it opens you will find them all in there.

As a shareholder I'm delighted with their success. With a wife who seems to enjoy shopping there so that I don't have to enter the dreaded place, I've got it both ways!

[a t o m i c]

The lady behind the counter in Londis told me that the only hope they had of stopping Tesco would be if an off licence application was refused - possible, as there is already Londis and Bargain Booze within doors of each other - but conceded that this was a very slim hope. As we know, Tesco will stop at nothing to get their own way. Take Gerrards Cross as a good and local example.

Actually, I'm not sure Gerrards X is a good example, as it's so obviously been a fiasco from beginning to end (whenever that might be). Most Tesco new store developments are reasonably sited and do not face strong opposition, as I'm sure the Choices Metro will be.

As for non-food, I don't consider Tesco a success at all. We did buy a cheap duvet cover from them, and the price and service were good, but the quality is poor and the experience unpleasant.

[Carl La Fong]

they know what the real acceptance will be and can ignore the amateur referendums and petitions.

They can ignore such things because they have the clout, the muscle and the money to make sure that they get their own way.

I'm as much a fan of free enterprise as anyone else, but Tesco are fast becoming the unacceptable face of capitalism. They are motivated by little else than greed - why else are they getting their corporate finger into so many non-core business activities? Make a good profit by all means - that's how businesses survive - but they don't just want a good profit, they want an outrageous one that has to increase every year. If they have to tread on the toes of small businesses, well, that's just tough, isn't it?

They don't NEED to open in the ex-Choices store, it will hardly make them a huge amount of money, but because they can, they will. And sod the small business next door. Who cares if it goes to the wall?

[David P]

They can ignore such things because they have the clout, the muscle and the money to make sure that they get their own way.

I'm as much a fan of free enterprise as anyone else, but Tesco are fast becoming the unacceptable face of capitalism. They are motivated by little else than greed - why else are they getting their corporate finger into so many non-core business activities? Make a good profit by all means - that's how businesses survive - but they don't just want a good profit, they want an outrageous one that has to increase every year. If they have to tread on the toes of small businesses, well, that's just tough, isn't it?

They don't NEED to open in the ex-Choices store, it will hardly make them a huge amount of money, but because they can, they will. And sod the small business next door. Who cares if it goes to the wall?

Why is it greedy to be successful? Tesco is a company that is supremely well managed. It's not only got its supply chain sorted (which everyone moans about) but has everything else right too - property portfolio, IT systems, marketing, finance, international ventures etc. Look what happened to M&S a few years back when they got all those things wrong; they almost went to the wall. Only now that they have a Chief Exec of the same calibre as Tesco are they beginning to revive. Tesco cannot stand still. If they did they would soon be eaten up by the likes of Walmart.

In this country we despair of failing companies, the likes of Rover, British Steel, the Post Office but then despise the successful ones precisely because they are successful. Do you really think the country would be a better place and more competitive globally if every High Street were still served just by Mom and Pop shops?

They are 'getting their finger into non-core businesses' because they need to do that to expand and to continue their success. Those businesses will become part of their core activities. Every other supermarket sells petrol and most are dabbling with clothes, electrical goods etc. The difference is that when Tesco do it, they don't dabble, they get on with it and do it seriously.

And no, they don't NEED to open in Choices. What's one shop among 2000? That shop is part of the Tesco Express business, a major part of their business strategy in this country and the model for what they intend to do in the States.

Who cares if Londis goes to the wall. Apart from the current owners/franchisees, I suspect very few. If you care, keep shopping there and they can remain open. Tesco is only there because people like it and use it.

I hate the place. Why am I defending it?

[Fran]

I hate the place. Why am I defending it?

Perhaps because, as you said earlier on this thread, you have shares in the company? (And because you like a good, well-balanced debate.)

[Eaton]

As a shareholder I'm delighted with their success.

Ditto.

[Fran]

David P has just defended Tesco, even though he dislikes it. In the context of big business trampling on the opposition, I'm now going to criticise Waitrose, even though I do like it.

A survey of the Guild of Fine Foods (whose 618 members are 25% of independent delis and farm shops) found that they worry more about Waitrose than Tesco, Asda, Sainsbury etc. So whilst a hypothetical Waitrose at Choices wouldn't be as much of a threat to Londis as a Tesco Express will surely be, Tesco aren't the only ones whose growth kills off smaller independents.

For the full article, see Waitrose the big threat to small shops in the Guardian.

[a t o m i c]

Mom and Pop

Mum and dad, please.

For the full article, see Waitrose the big threat to small shops in the Guardian.

Don't you find that reading the Guardian is like sticking knitting needles in your eyes?

[roob_the_doob]

One interesting argument I've heard made more than once is that high added value shops like Waitrose (and, more relevantly, M&S) can actually sometimes have a beneficial effect, by boosting the total number of affluent customers shopping in an area. They may come to Amersham for M&S, but may well also end up shopping at other specialist shops. I don't know how true that might be, but I suspect that non-food stores in AotH may indeed benefit from M&S opening. And I doubt that Iceland are worried about M&S - the two stores target completely different demongraphics.

I don't think the same can be said for a new Tesco. I doubt it will have much of an effect on the total market, but *will* have a major detrimental effect on numerous local shops, especially Londis. People have questioned why we should worry about Londis. The answer is that the owners have built their business in Amersham, and aren't going anywhere else. Let's suppose that the new Tesco store "competes" nearby shops into the ground, so that we lose Londis, maybe Iceland, perhaps the butchers and greengrocers, the florists, maybe Threshers or Bargain Booze... What happens if Tesco then decide the shop isn't worth maintaining, that it isn't sufficiently profitable, and close it down? Or what happens when the competition is gone, and Tesco stock control mirrors that in its larger stores (following the "Just Too Late" principal) so that they prefer to run out of bread and milk (to avoid losing profits due to wastage) rather than operate so as to ensure that they are always able to satisfy customer demand?

I do rather wonder who they think will shop there. I would have thought that people with cars will usually go the the large store down the hill (unless they just want a pint of milk, but Tesco doesn't make it's money by selling milk - well, not directly, although it is often argued that it uses predatory pricing of staples to cripple the profit margins of the competition). In any case, those with cars will struggle to park - it's tough enough finding a space now (and there is a very large amount of inconsiderate and/or dangerous driving associated with the hunt for a space), without adding large numbers of food shoppers. The main car park is quite some distance to carry more than a couple of shopping bags. I think we will see the Tesco cause some rather severe traffic problems.

That really could pose a safety hazard to school kids going to and from DCGS and/or the station. (Personally, I would class Station Approach, Station Road and Hill Avenue as much more dangerous roads for pedestrians than Stanley Hill.)

[Carl La Fong]

And no, they don't NEED to open in Choices. What's one shop among 2000? That shop is part of the Tesco Express business, a major part of their business strategy in this country and the model for what they intend to do in the States.

Who cares if Londis goes to the wall. Apart from the current owners/franchisees, I suspect very few. If you care, keep shopping there and they can remain open. Tesco is only there because people like it and use it.

So if they don't need to open in Choices, why are they doing it? They keep banging on about wanting to be a part of local communities. In this case, they are helping to destroy a part of it.

And I care if Londis closes. I like some choice. Jeez, I'm glad I don't work for you, with that kind of attitiude.

[David P]

Let's suppose that the new Tesco store "competes" nearby shops into the ground, so that we lose Londis, maybe Iceland, perhaps the butchers and greengrocers, the florists, maybe Threshers or Bargain Booze... What happens if Tesco then decide the shop isn't worth maintaining, that it isn't sufficiently profitable, and close it down?

If it closes down all those and takes all the custom from them with less than a third of their total floor space I don't see how it can possibly be insufficiently profitable.

[roob_the_doob]

If it closes down all those and takes all the custom from them with less than a third of their total floor space I don't see how it can possibly be insufficiently profitable.

A store can make a profit, but still be deemed not to be profitable enough, if putting the same investment into another store elsewhere would yield a greater profit - a financial investment in a store has a hidden cost (the "opportunity cost") which doesn't show in profit/loss accounts. Running a store has costs associated with the investment required to maintain stock levels, and to supply store fittings, freezers, tills etc. If I put £1000 into a bank account at a 4% rate of interest I might see an increase in my money in real terms (assuming inflation at around 2.5%. But that would still represent a loss when compared to the yield I could make in a high interest account or by investing the cash in shares.

In any case, Tesco doesn't need to take all the custom from a small shop to cause them to close (and I wasn't supposing it would cause them all to shut). Removing only a relatively small %age of everyday custom could be enough to send a small business to the wall. By removing the high volume low margin business which specialist services may require in order to remain viable, Tesco will result in such services being completely lost to the town. And there is no way a Tesco Metro will give the choice and service that small, local businesses provide.

[Fran]

Mom and Pop

Mum and dad, please.

Or even Mamma & papa?!

Don't you find that reading the Guardian is like sticking knitting needles in your eyes?

No! Anyway, I like reading a variety of opinions, and it's often more interesting to read things you disagree with - one of the things I enjoy about this forum!

[a t o m i c]

Or even Mamma & papa?!

That's just a gnat's wing away from French! Mon dieu!

[David P]

A store can make a profit, but still be deemed not to be profitable enough, if putting the same investment into another store elsewhere would yield a greater profit - a financial investment in a store has a hidden cost (the "opportunity cost") which doesn't show in profit/loss accounts.

In any case, Tesco doesn't need to take all the custom from a small shop to cause them to close (and I wasn't supposing it would cause them all to shut).

I accept all that. However, if it does cause them all to close and captures all their business then it is, to me, inconceivable that it would not be profitable enough. If it replaces 3000 sq ft of shops with 1000 sq ft (whatever the actual figures are), then, with its undoubted greater buying power, it has to provide a very satisfactory return to its shareholders.

If, on the other hand, it does not cause them all to close, then your argument becomes weaker. We still have some of the small specialist shops. And with Tesco attrcating the shoppers back to AotH, the possibility that more will open.

Removing only a relatively small %age of everyday custom could be enough to send a small business to the wall. By removing the high volume low margin business which specialist services may require in order to remain viable, Tesco will result in such services being completely lost to the town. And there is no way a Tesco Metro will give the choice and service that small, local businesses provide.

The one that will go to the wall is Londis. But are you seriously suggesting that Londis is a 'specialist' shop or that it provides better choice and service that Tesco?

[PaulEden]

Don't you find that reading the Guardian is like sticking knitting needles in your eyes?

No! !

Ah Fran. How wrong you are!

[Fran]

So at least 2 people on this forum can relate to sticking knitting needles in their eyes?!
Is this some weird Amersham tradition dating back to pagans or martyrs that I should be aware of, or is it just that in this leafy commuter-belt, reading the Guardian is too heinous an aberration to be excused?

[Chiltern PC]

Please sign the Petition at www.nochoicesnotesco.com
or in the Londis shop

[roob_the_doob]

If, on the other hand, it does not cause them all to close, then your argument becomes weaker. We still have some of the small specialist shops. And with Tesco attrcating the shoppers back to AotH, the possibility that more will open.

But a Tesco Metro won't attract new customers, since drivers will be going to the existing store 3/4 mile away. All it will do is attract custom from the existing footfall. (M&S on the other hand is very likely to increase footfall.) Suppose that the new Tesco sells bunches of flowers, and that it sells (say) 30 a day. That's a weekly turnover in flowers alone in the region of £2000-3000, which is trade lost to the existing florists, easily enough to make the difference between trading successfully and going under. But Tesco Metro will never provide the sort of detailed, customer-focussed, personal, bespoke service that one would look for in a florist. The same argument applies to butchers, greengrocers, and convenience stores.

I agree it's unlikely that Tesco would close the store if it out-competed other nearby shops, but I would be far from surprised if the store's opening hours were restricted to relatively busy times. There's not a great deal of shopping going on in Amersham on a Sunday at 7pm.

The one that will go to the wall is Londis. But are you seriously suggesting that Londis is a 'specialist' shop or that it provides better choice and service that Tesco?

Will Tesco be open on Xmas day so that you can buy the extra stuffing mix/cooking oil/milk that you find you've run out of while making Xmas dinner? I think a general store that opens on Xmas day (and bank holidays, and Sunday evenings) does indeed count as a specialist shop.